"Napoleon the Jacobin?" Topic

" Case in point is calling Napoleon a Jacobin. He is using that in blockheaded fashion as a perjorative"

Is he? Why would calling somebody a Jacobin be thought perjorative?

- I guess even the relatively astute TMPer won't be arsed into using Google…

Hew Johns,
Because Barnett takes great care to paint a picture of the Jacobins in a bad light. Making multiple references of Bonaparte as a "fervent jacobin" and other similar comments, therefore suits his established MO of making Napoleon look bad too.

Brechtel,

Have you checked the provenance of Forrest's "quote" (which is not actually a quote)? Have you ensured that it is an accurate translation (after all, Napoleon did not write it or say it using the words that Forrest uses)? Have you further checked the context in which Napoleon said it?

Secondary sources are useful, but should always be checked rather than just being relied upon. If you use Forrest as a source, that is, by definition, a secondary source as the primary source would be the original record of what Napoleon said or wrote (which would, of course, be in French, not English). To argue that Forrest's translated "quote" (did he get it from the primary source or another secondary source?) is not a secondary source is nonsense.

Anyway, how does being secretary of a Jacobin club make Bonaparte not a Jacobin of some sort?

Er yes…one day we will have a gaming miniatures site with real software.

Ah, now that I myself have been arsed into looking at the "emporer" thread, I see that my points have already been made, esp. by Flecktarn. Maybe there is hope after all.

Flecktarn

My wife's mother was a member of the Conservative Club. She had no interest in Politics and could tell you nothing about what the Conservative Party stood for or who was who in the party. But they had good dances apparently. Does that make her a Conservative?

tee hee Gazz, such a card, with another interesting analogy.

Of course your poor old nan-in-law also never wrote pro-Conservative tracts either. However I'd place a bet on her being more likely to be a conservative than a Marxist.

After reading the contributions I came to the conclusion that Buonaparte was for sure for a while a Jacobin.

"And if a secondary source is credible, and I believe all of Alan Forrest's works are,"

Then I would suggest that you try reading more of them. Since his retirement he has, as he described it, become seen as more of a "popular" and even "military" Historian, with publishers wanting him to produce more accessible work, like his "Napoleon". However, if you had looked at his earlier work, such as those I suggested to you, you would see that most of it is original research. As I've said elsewhere, if you need a list of works on the Revolution that will enlighten you I am happy to provide one.

Gazzola,

The Conservative Club is somewhat different from the Jacobin Club. The former is a social organisation which does not play an active political role, as active politics are the responsibility of the local branch of the party. The Jacobin club, however, was an active local branch of the party and did not organise dances.

Keep the comedy flowing Gazzola:).

I'm not sure if it is just me, but there appears to be a feeling that, if the Jacobins were politically radical, and of the Left, that that, in itself, is proof that they were baduns. Perhaps posters' current political viewpoints are colouring their perceptions of late 18th century political ideas?

I don't think people think the Jacobins were 'baduns' because they were politically radical and of the Left; I think it is more to do with the fact that they were responsible for a Reign of Terror. That sort of thing tends to put people off.

Then I would suggest that you try reading more of them. 'Since his retirement he has, as he described it, become seen as more of a "popular" and even "military" Historian, with publishers wanting him to produce more accessible work, like his "Napoleon". However, if you had looked at his earlier work, such as those I suggested to you, you would see that most of it is original research. As I've said elsewhere, if you need a list of works on the Revolution that will enlighten you I am happy to provide one.'

I've had his earlier works in my library for years and have used them in my research. Thanks for the offer, though, but the Napoleonic section of my library is quite thorough with both primary material and credible secondary works.

B

But I wasn't referring to Napoleonic works; it is the Revolution that you seem to lack knowledge of.
Would you care to suggest some, or even one, of Forrest's earlier works which lacks original research, to justify your earlier claim?

'But I wasn't referring to Napoleonic works; it is the Revolution that you seem to lack knowledge of.
Would you care to suggest some, or even one, of Forrest's earlier works which lacks original research, to justify your earlier claim?'

What 'earlier claim?'

I'm sorry, but you're not making much sense…

B

Brechtel198, you stated clearly "And if a secondary source is credible, and I believe all of Alan Forrest's works are".

That looks like a claim, or assertion, to me. If it doesn't make much sense then can you explain it to yourself, as you wrote it.
However, to deconstruct your claim, you appear to be claiming, or asserting, that all of Alan Forrest's works are secondary sources. I asked you to prove your assertion.

Chouan,

Brechtel was quite clearly stating that he believes that all of Forrest's works are credible secondary sources. He is not claiming that any of Forrest's early works lack primary research.

Of course Forrest's works are secondary sources; what else could they be?

Sorry everyone! Thanks Flecktarn for the clarification.
Post-Ofsted flabbiness of the brain, probably. How much stress can one take…….

Flecktern

I'm glad you are amused. Makes a change with people being 'annoyed' at what I write.

But I think you are missing the point – My wife's mum, in order to join the Conservative Club, if I remember rightly, had to be a member of the Conservative Party.

Gustav

Hey, don't knock it and don't be fooled by the dances! They were cover ups for all sorts of nasty political planning, not that my Nan had anything to do with it, of course.

This seems to getting off topic, with the typical 'what B. claims or doesn't claim after he claims it…'

What would Napoleon [or anyone] have to do to be considered a "Jacobin" at some point? I would imagine:

1. Privately espouse similar or identical beliefs.
2. Join organizations, clubs or groups linked to or
called 'Jacobins'.
3. Publically identify with Jacobin beliefs and actions.
4. Support in word and deed the overt Jacobin agendas
5. Hold positions of responsibiity in established Jacobin
organizations.

Napoleon did all of the above. I think it is reasonable to say he was a Jacobin at some point in his life. He obviously supported many of their beliefs and administrative actions that I previously listed throughout his reign as First Consul and Emperor.

From all indications, he never supported "The Terror", though it was a logical, if extremely radical and murderous extension of Rousseau's and French Enlightment thinking.
Rousseau conceived of man as basically good and society corrupted him. Rouseau is the one who came up with the idea of "The Natural Man" and first idealized the natives of North America. The individualistic Tirailleur combat was seen as just one expression of this freed, "New Man."

The General Will or majority opinion thus would always be 'good' and right. Any opposition to that General Will had to be necessarily bad and keeping society from doing what it naturally would do otherwise, be virtuous and good. Thus, any opposition was corrupting the Good and needed to be eliminated as a 'bad influence.' This was perceived by Robespierre and the Jacobins as rational, a conclusion based on logic and it justified the Terror, particularly when the General Will was under threat from Monarchial armies outside and aristocratic from inside, both obviously 'bad'… Read any of Robespierre's speeches of the time. He blatantly presents just the conclusions I have described. Even such judicial slaughter was justified as good, because it was the General Will. It was one of the first examples of the dictatorship of the majority.

Robespierre's speech on the terror:

link

Napoleon was a bit of a jacobin tart for a while, when it suited him. When he had no use for it, he went onto something else that helped him on his upwardly mobile career. Chap was simply a bounder that used & abused people.

Peeler:
Well, in the case of the Jacobins, Napoleon, and a lot of people deserted the political group when it was prudent--say, the day after the majority of Robespierre's Committe for Public Safety were tried and beheaded in one night.

Afterwards, Napoleon was imprisoned for a short time because of his Jacobin associations… at least he wasn't beheaded like hundreds of Jacobins were in the subsequent days. That Nappy used and abused people, there is no doubt. We all have relatives who do that.

You aren't wrong there, in both cases :)

Peeler

If I remember rightly Napoleon was released because there was no evidence against him.

And based on your choice to use the expression Jacobin tart when referring to Napoleon, I suppose it is okay to call Wellington a Tory tart and Blucher a Prussian tart. All tarts together, eh?

Peeler:

Which cases were those?

Gazz you don't need to state the obvious. Of course Wellington was a Tory tart. Just ask Harriette Wilson.

Not sure that Blucher was really a Prussian tart though, thought he was actually more a Mecklenberg and a Swedish tart first.

see Gazz you just don't know your tarts well enough. I am shocked at your lack of tart knowledge.

Perhaps you need to do some more primary research ? Then perhaps you would then reform your views re the Jacobin one.

Gazzola,

I cannot see why anyone would be annoyed by you;). If your purported mother in law was a member of her local Conservative association she was, therefore, in one form of the definition, a Conservative.

As to the Corsican dwarf, I suspect that he was attracted to the principles of Jacobinism and became an active member but was then repulsed by the savagery that the party descended into.

McLaddie, in both the cases you posted about :)

Gazz, of course you can call Wellington a Tory Tart. We need more research into Tarts I think.

Gustav & Peeler

Apart from saying it to prove a point, I would not call him that – I have more respect for people who made history, especially those who risked their lives doing so. A shame others don't. But then again, some people don't have any respect for anything or anyone and therefore don't deserve any respect themselves.

Flecktarn

Interesting that you feel she was a Conservative. She had no political views at all. Mind you, if the Jacobins had been around they may have have offered much better dances, so she might have gone over to them. I suppose she would have been classed as a Jacobin then.

In terms of Napoleon, I think it you look at my posts I have said that I felt there wasn't enough evidence to support him being an outright Jacobin, not that I'm bothered if he was anyway. But I am quite happy to accept he joined a Jacobin club and associated with Jacobins to move up the ladder. Any intelligent person with sense would probably have done the same, had they lived through the same chaos and upheaval.

"As to the Corsican dwarf, I suspect that he was attracted to the principles of Jacobinism and became an active member but was then repulsed by the savagery that the party descended into."

Which seems like a reasonable view; yet Buonaparte was still closely associated with the Jacobins during the Terror. So closely associated with them that he was arrested shortly after Thermidor, his close association with Augustin Robespierre making him particularly suspect, one could surmise.

Gazzola,

I do not feel that your dear mother in law was a Conservative, I merely note that, as a member of her local Conservative Association and, hence, a member of the Conservative Party, she was, by definition, a Conservative, although possibly neither a politically involved member nor a conservative. My feelings with regard to her Conservatism are utterly irrelevant.

As to Bonaparte's membership of the Jacobin club, we will probably never have absolute proof of his political convictions, although his attempt at literature indicates that he was rather more than just an opportunist in this regards.

Chouan,

I suspect that for Bonaparte to have repudiated his association with the Jacobins during the terror would have resulted in his name only appearing in history as a minor footnote as one who met his end during that period.

McLaddie, in both the cases you posted about :)

Peeler:

Oh, those two cases. I misspoke about when Robspierre and Company were executed. It was the the next morning… after poor R. had attempted suicide twice and failed. Jumping out of a window, and breaking both legs. Then using a pistol, but *only* shattering his jaw. St. Just and R.'s brother were also guillotined that morning, another two members of the Committee for Public Safety later in the week. After that, the Committee was disbanded by the Convention.

A lot of messy history.

Flecktarn

Irrelevant – not so. To those who do not know her personally, she would appear to be a Conservative, due, as you say by definition of her being a member of the Conservative Party and therefore by her association with Conservatives.

However, I can assure you she was not a Conservative. She used the party for her own ends, naughty nan – or is that clever nan? Depends on your point of view, I suppose. Was Napoleon really a Jacobin or he was using them to progess in life – naughty Napoleon or clever Napoleon? Depends on your point of view. I know which I think it is.

Chouan

Just a thought, but since you seem to prefer to write Napoleon's full original surname before he dropped some of the letters, I wondered if that went for other historical characters?

For example, do you prefer to write Arthur Wellesley instead of the Duke of Wellington? And do you prefer to write king George V's surname (and the following royals to this day) as Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, rather than Windsors, the surname he changed it to in 1917?

It is just that usually everyone refers to Napoleon's surname as Bonaparte, Wellesley as the Duke and the royals as Windsors. Or does your habit only relate to when the odd letter or two is dropped, not titles or complete surname changes?

Gazz – DO NOT be dissing our Royals :) that's a step far too far :) the Duke will be calling on your door soon :)

McLaddie – now that sounds like some right messed up drunken party that's got of hand.

Plain, simple, and in conjunction wirth human nature, Napoloen did, belived and schemed whatever was expedient to advancement. He was a guy who inately, fundamentally felt hinself better at everything, and any one. He may well have been right, until the beginning of the end in 1812.
Napoleon, early on, would (and did) carry the card of those that could further his career, but he was also genius a maintaining alliances within the ranks. The 'wiff of grapeshot' was not a happy accident. Friends had to bring the troopers and cannon.

Dear Gazzola,

You bring such amusement to these often somewhat dreary boards; you are our very own Nick Bottom or Trinculo.

The analogy that you drawn with your beloved mother in law is a poor one as you seem to be assuming that her motivation for party membership was the same as that of the emotionally stunted Corsican, which is unlikely to be the case. The analogy falls down on two key points:

1. The assumption of a common motivation for membership, which is based on no evidence whatever.

2. As your mother in law was, according to you, not a Conservative and, indeed, had no political views at all, it is unlikely that she wrote and had published a political pamphlet promoting Conservative political ideals and views. Captain Buonaparte, however, did write and have published a political pamphlet promoting Jacobin political ideals and views; that alone strongly suggests that he was, in the summer of 1793 at least, a convinced Jacobin. The fact that he also served before then as the secretary of a Jacobin Club, which is rather more than just being a member, can only further strengthen the point of view that Jacobinism was his political philosophy for at least a couple of years.

What was/is your relationship like with your mother in law? Mine is 5000 miles away and speaks no English, which seems like the prefect arrangement:).

Peeler

Don't dish our Royals. Are you having a laugh?

The post referred to Chouan who, for some reason seems reluctant to explain why he continues to spell the surname of Napoleon before he dropped some of the letters.

Unlike the Royals, Napoleon only dropped a few letters and not the whole surname. So it was a perfectly good question directed at Chouan and, as yet, unanswered. Perhaps he does refer to the Duke only as Arthur Wellesley and the Royals as Saxe-Coburg-Gotha but does not want everyone to know?

Flecktarn

It is a valid example because you yourself stated that by definition she was a Conservative. However, I, who knew her, know she was not. This relates to Napoleon being seen as a Jacobin when he may not have been one. He may have been simply using them to progress up the ladder, something perhaps we would all do, given the opportunity.

But as I've said before, I don't care if he was a Jacobin. He worked his way up the ladder provided by the Revolution to reach the top. Not many people achieved that then or now.

My relationship was great and very loving. However, I don't think she would be pleased about me bringing her into political and military debates, so I won't say any more.

It's Sunday, time for afternoon tea followed by a lie down :)

Gazzola, you old wombat,

I will respect your desire not to bring your mother in law any further into the discussion. She was developing into something of a cul de sac anyway and lacked comic value.

Flecktarn

Cute creatures wombats but for calling my nan a cul de sac, I desire satisfaction – pistols swords, or keyboards?

Peeler

It's Monday, have another lie down. And watch the film Waterloo. See how caring I am.

Gazzola,

A friend of mine was once bitten by a wombat; how the rest of us laughed:)).

My weapons of choice are hot air balloons, which also seem somewhat appropriate.

Thank you Gazz, very thoughtful of you. I had a good lie in & a trip to Whitby, & partook in the old pie shop cafe. Very nice it was too.

I'll be watching Waterloo tommorrow. :)

Ah, Whitby; a lovely town and the birthplace of a great friend of mine.

"The post referred to Chouan who, for some reason seems reluctant to explain why he continues to spell the surname of Napoleon before he dropped some of the letters.

Unlike the Royals, Napoleon only dropped a few letters and not the whole surname. So it was a perfectly good question directed at Chouan and, as yet, unanswered. Perhaps he does refer to the Duke only as Arthur Wellesley and the Royals as Saxe-Coburg-Gotha but does not want everyone to know?"

Well apart from just having endured Ofsted (I was "good with outstanding features…. how charming!) I also had some time away in recompense and for father's day. I am now able to respond.
I call him Buonaparte because that was his name. Not as an insult, but that was his name. He chose to change it later to, I assume, make himself appear French rather than the Italian/Corsican that he actually was. I won't give him the self-styled title of "Napoleon", because it wasn't a legitimate title, and wasn't recognised by any state that hadn't been defeated by him; certainly not by Britain. I could call the Duke of Wellington by his actual birth name of Arthur Wesley, or the new name, Wellesley, that his family adopted to make themselves appear better. However, he was granted the title of Duke by a legitimate monarch, so I'm happy to refer to him as Wellington, as a legitimate title, even though I dislike him and his politics.

Peeler, I envy you your trip to Whitby; I am miles from a decent fish shop! I used to frequent the one on the corner on the south side of the river, not far from the swing bridge, just opposite the lane that leads to the bottom of the steps up to St.Hilda's.

Peeler

Ah yes, I've been to Whitby. Famous for having jet I believe.

And a great film Waterloo, with one of the best portrayals of the Emperor Napoleon.

Happy days, eh?