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"Stielgranate 41 " Topic


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2,571 hits since 13 May 2013
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Rod I Robertson Inactive Member14 May 2013 9:54 a.m. PST

Does anyone know when the Stielgranate 41 spigot bomb heat round first became available to PaK 36 crews? Some sources put it as available from the beginning of 1941 and others put its introduction as late in the summer of 41. I also would like the same information about the Stielgranate 42.
Secondly, could such a round be fired safely and effectively from a half-track mounting a PaK 36? It seems to me to be a mighty dangerous prospect. Thank you in advance for your help in this matter.
Rod Robertson.

Rod I Robertson Inactive Member14 May 2013 10:39 a.m. PST

Tim and all:
Ian Hogg's "German Artillery of World War Two" (p. 189) put the introduction as mid-41, I also have sources for Feb. 1942 and mid-summer 1942. The most common date is May 1942. Another rather vague reference to 1941, is by Peter Chamberlain and Terry Gander's book "Anti-Tank Weapons". On p. 27, is found the following: "In 1941, in an attempt to boost the effectiveness of the obsolete 3.7cm Pak35/36, the Germans produced the Stielgranate 41…". Now the quote says produced not delivered to troops so when it came into service is unclear.
Rod Robertson.

Mobius14 May 2013 11:18 a.m. PST

From "German Anti-Tank Troops of World War II", by Fleischer and Elermann, March 23, 1942 Army Corps stated that the 37mm was insufficient in fighting enemy tanks. In early June 1942, then after introduction of the stick grenade there was brief thought of keeping the 37mm as part of the anti-tank defense. So somewhere between that time frame is as close as I can find of it being introduced.

Skarper14 May 2013 11:29 a.m. PST

Wiki has a date of 'late 1941'.

ASL tells us this about the PaK 35/36 and Stielgranate.
6. 3.7cm PaK 35/36: The standard German AT gun at the beginning of the war. By 1941 over 15,000 had been produced. It first saw combat during the Spanish Civil War in 1936, where it acquired a good reputation. In the 1940 invasion of France however, the PaK 35/36 was unable to penetrate the armor of certain French and British tanks, and the same proved true in Russia in 1941 when confronted by the T-34 or KV. Such increasingly inadequate performance caused the PaK 35/36 to become derisively referred to as the Army's door-knocker, and by 1942 most AT battalions were re-equipped with the new PaK 38. In the meantime a special HEAT projectile (the Stielgranate 41) was developed for the PaK 35/36, thus prolonging its usefulness even after it was relegated to second-line and reserve units. Prior to 1943, three platoons of four AT guns each made up the AT company of each infantry regiment, with another three companies in the divisional AT battalion. This gun may be porteed by an Opel truck.

B. This special HEAT round was known as the Stielgranate 41. It consisted of an egg-shaped hollow-charge warhead, to the rear of which was attached a rod inside a finned and perforated sleeve. The round was muzzle loaded; i.e., the loader inserted the rod into the muzzle end of the gun-barrel (with the finned sleeve sliding down over the outside of the barrel), and a special blank cartridge was loaded into the breech to fire it. The fin-stabilized projectile had a muzzle velocity of 110 m/sec (361 ft/sec) and maximum range of about 364m (400 yds).

No dates though beyond a vague 1942 inference – and elsewhere in the rules HEAT is unavailable before 1943.

jdginaz14 May 2013 5:01 p.m. PST

You need to understand that the 3.7cm wasn't put on the halftrack to be a AT weapon but was there to provide fire support for the infantry. I doubt that any Stielgranate were even issued to the halftracks. If confronted by enemy armor the halftrack's best defense was to run and hide.

Etranger Inactive Member14 May 2013 7:51 p.m. PST

Ungainly brute as it was, I doubt that the halftrack crews would have been too keen to load them, even if they were issued.

[URL=http://s199.photobucket.com/user/etranger_album/media/WWII%20Military/Pak36Budapest.jpg.html]

[/URL]

Example in Budapest military museum.

Skarper14 May 2013 8:26 p.m. PST

Late 1941 was from a picture caption. Wikipedia is what it is – inevitable contradictions abound.

I would presume 1943 when HEAT became available for other guns.

Hornswoggler15 May 2013 12:27 a.m. PST

15cm Stielgranate 42

"…About 150m from the muzzle the retardation of the driving rod caused it to separate from the rest of the projectile, which then continued to a maximum range of about 1000m. The head was filled with 27.00kg of amatol and was an effective method of demolishing strongpoints, clearing barbed wire obstacles and breaching minefields by blast effect. Contrary to the other 'Stielgranaten' projectiles in use, the 15cm type was not intended as an anti-tank weapon. The fuze was a modified mortar pattern with delay or instantaneous settings."

p27, German Artillery of World War Two, Ian V. Hogg

Rudi the german Inactive Member15 May 2013 2:02 a.m. PST

Not everything is on the web today.

Sometime you have to look it up in a old book:
Waffen und geheimwaffen des deutschen heeres 1933- 1945
Isbn 3763759158 by fritz hahn.

This book is a must have.

And here the definitive answers from the production list from the Heereswaffenamt (HWA) Department of arms:

Stielgranate 41 first issued february 42.

Production in
1942 is 600900 rounds
1943 is 35100 rounds.
No production thereafter.

Stielgranate 42 declared ready to use in march 1943. In march 1945 still 12000 round in depot non delivered to the forces.

Also were a variant for 15cm as stiel granate produced:
2900 rounds in 1942,
58700 rounds in 1943,
25600 rounds in 1944.

The stielgranate could be fired also from SPW, but usage was considered dangerous as the V0 was constant and the stielgranate only armour piecing under 200m. At this distance is a spw 251 or 250 already in the cloverleaf of any medium tank of russian or allied design.

Greetings and have fun

Rod I Robertson Inactive Member15 May 2013 3:34 a.m. PST

Thank you Rudi for your offering of German sources. It seems February to May of 1942 is the safest bet so that is what I think I'll go with until someone proves me wrong.
Tim and Etranger: Thanks for the guidance on vehicle mounted Pak 36's and the Stielgranate 41. I did not want them used and now I have a leg to stand on.
To all: Thanks.
Rod Robertson.

Steve Wilcox15 May 2013 5:26 a.m. PST

Not everything is on the web today.

Sometime you have to look it up in a old book:
Waffen und geheimwaffen des deutschen heeres 1933- 1945
Isbn 3763759158 by fritz hahn.

This book is a must have.


His book is also one of the sources used here, which concurs with the February 1942 date:
link

7dot62mm15 May 2013 5:32 a.m. PST

Also note that the Stielgranate is just placed onto/into the barrel of the gun. There is nothing there to hold it in place when you drive your halftrack over bumps etc. so the use sequence has to be stop – load – fire – drive on.

Hornswoggler15 May 2013 7:16 p.m. PST

Also note that the Stielgranate is just placed onto/into the barrel of the gun. There is nothing there to hold it in place when you drive your halftrack over bumps etc. so the use sequence has to be stop load fire drive on.

The same limitation also applied when fired from a PaK which is not vehicle mounted ie it had to be stationary before being muzzle loaded and could not really be moved once loaded without the risk of the granate falling out. The fairly limited range (especially for accurate fire) along with the requirement for somebody to crawl back out in front to reload, effectively make this a one-shot-ambush type weapon.

Rudi the german Inactive Member15 May 2013 10:37 p.m. PST

Hi,
These are just the figures from the department of arms. The 3,7 Pak is anyway withdraw from the AT role in 1941 so it do not really matter. Panzerfaust takes the role of close range AT weapon than…

Wich ruleset are you playing which has special rules for the stielgranate anyway?

Please ask incase you need any more infos…

Greetings and have fun

Hornswoggler15 May 2013 10:54 p.m. PST

But it seems to imply that the Pak 36 and Stielgranate were not very common after 1943?

Hogg certainly claims they were encountered in Normandy, though it is not clear how common they were (p129, Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of WWII, Ian V. Hogg).

Senger und Etterlin's German tanks of World War II has information for, IIRC, a shaped charge round for the 15 cm gun. Since I first read this back in the 80s, I had always assumed this was a conventional round. But is it true then that the shaped charge round for the 15 cm was actually the Stielgranate 42?

Tim, as well as the Stielgranate 42 there was also a conventional hollow charge round for the IG33. It was designated 15cm I Gr 39 H1/A.

Hornswoggler16 May 2013 1:22 a.m. PST

It may also be of interest that there was a 5cm Stielgranate 42 available for use with the 5cm PaK 38. Similar to the 3.7cm Stielgranate, this was also an AT round with the ability to penetrate 180mm of plate. However it was a different shape due to the tail needing to fit over the 5cm's muzzle brake. The recommended maximum engagement range was 150m.
(p196, German Artillery of WW2, Ian V. Hogg)

Apparently Stielgranaten were also available for firing from the captured 47mm AT guns employed by the Germans, both Czech and French.

Rod I Robertson Inactive Member16 May 2013 4:38 a.m. PST

Rudi:
The rules used by my gaming circle are Battleground WWII; an older and now somewhat defunct set of rules. The rules are great once you get comfortable with them and we have made substantial revisions to the system.
However, what prompted the question was some vehicles I received from Forged in Battle Miniatures. I ordered a platoon of the early war SdKfz 251 B's and the command version came with a PaK 36. The miniatures were brilliant but the PaK 36 had a stielgranate 41 on it. I went to the manufacturer's web-page and even their early war PaK 36 pack had stielgranaten on the guns. This prompted me to wonder when the heat round was first issued. After some quick research, it was clear that the dates were all over the place.
The question about the vehicle-use of stielgranate 41 was a pro-active question because I know my fellow gamers.
The question about the stielgranate 42 was actually about the one meant for the PaK 38 50mm ATG which is also mentioned in Hogg's book. (see Hornswoggler's post above).
Thanks again for your imput which settled the debate for me at least. Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

Rudi the german Inactive Member16 May 2013 12:22 p.m. PST

The battleground scenario book is one of the best. Also their scenario book for modern battle is very good.

And for your Q about the stielgranate… The german army in ww2 was a recycling army.. They used everything …


The oldest "Pak" was the 7,5-cm-Feldkanone (F.K.) 16 from the ww1 .
298 Guns were in use!

John D Salt Inactive Member17 May 2013 10:31 a.m. PST

Rudi the German wrote:


Waffen und geheimwaffen des deutschen heeres 1933- 1945
Isbn 3763759158 by fritz hahn.

Dammit, more expense.

All the best,

John.

John D Salt Inactive Member21 May 2013 3:26 a.m. PST

…and, now it's arrived, a very fine looking book. Thanks for the tip, Rudi!

All the best,

John.

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