"early bronze age european armies" Topic

This is a difficult conversation… mostly because there is nothing written about these people.

Just some questions: would any of these Europeans have fought against "civilized" armies like the Hittites or sea peoples?

What weapons would these men have used? I know Europe in this time was largely uncivilized , so there wouldn't be any formal armies….would there? I see these "armies" as being equipped with slings and spears…. maybe some axes.

Finally, what models could depict northern Europeans of the bronze age? How would a hail Caesar army of these guys be organized? I figure some warbands, light infantry, small unit of light cavalry, and some skirmishers… just my thoughts obviously.
Thanks in advance

Have you looked at Foundry's European Bronze Age figures??

Never….
Now I feel stupid.
Lol

The BDM/M Army lists had armies for the Europeans. I just don't have any of those handy.

Never….
Now I feel stupid.

Steady… If we all had all the answers, all the time, we wouldn't need this forum, would we!!

We come here for answers. Some are "wise donkeys" answers and some are helpful.

Just be glad that some did not merely post "TMP link".
Some get upset if that has been asked a week ago. Ignore them, and enjoy TMP.

Thanks guys!

Foundry is awesome… but on fast-food salary…. hah!

Would Scythian soldiers represent these guys well?
I found some really cool 1/72 scythians and early Jews that have that barbaric Germanic look.
the kits are by Orion and Caesar.

The Foundry Bronze Age Europeans have been on my to-buy list for years, but, yes, price is always an issue. One of these days, I hope.

There often used to be army deals on the Foundry Bronze Age Europeans that make them quite reasonable, if you're willing to buy all at once. That's how I got mine. Although I see there are new pricing ideas at Foundry, and who knows what the future holds.

I also often see them on Ebay at cheaper prices, if again, you can be patient. I figure, also like me, many people bought army deals and never got around to painting them. But I'm holding on to mine :) They're number three on my project priority list right now, but they've been there or there abouts for quite some time. Really beautiful though.

A little info here.

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Amicalement
Armand

Please… They have names!

And there is tons written about them and they have left a lot of information…

The early iron Europeans are called Hallstatt.
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the bronzeage europeans Urnenfeld.
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They are in fact identical with the Kurgan culture and are proto illyrians who invaded succsesfull or are just the hethiter ( they called themself "Hatti").

The hallstatt drove south and are identical with the sea people. Have you never arsked yourself why they the vikings and the sea people have horned helmets?
And they seapeople went for egypt and never touched the Hatti?

The egyptian name for them is Haunebu. Their symbol is the spinnig circle or labyrint which can be found in europe.
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There oldest temples are on malta.
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Which can be bought on malta in 25mm scale for good prices.

I use for my Hallstatt Haunebu Foundry broneage plus hetiters and seapeople nobels and all myceans with horned helmets.

I beefed them up with the redoubt myceans.

I used for the Hallstatt a lot of green and NO tatoos. For the Haunebu a lot of light blue. Armour and spears are gold and bronze, swords are iron.

Please visit the museum in Halle for them…
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Thank you for asking about this long (not lost) tribes.

Greetings and have fun
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Here their there language and the indo germanic ablaut
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"Have you never asked yourself why they the vikings and the sea people have horned helmets?"

I think perhaps it may have more to do with channelling the power of the bull than any esoteric cultural imperative which survived dormant for two thousand years on opposite sides of Europe.

Anyway, on topic, i'd just chip in that there is plenty of good wargaming material based around the Trojans and Myceneans.

It shouldn't take an interested person long to figure out how to add in the Aenead either, and then start working on some of the less well romanticised options either.

Ok ok…. firstly, no horns on viking helmets – more Victorian fantasy but that's a bit off topic.

The Hallstatt proto-celts from central Europe are in no way shap of form related to the Sea Peoples. The Sea Peoples appear to have been from various Mediterranean islands among which the most popular claimants are Sardinia, Sicily, the Aegean Islands and the south coast of Anatolia – and yes we know they fought the Hittites (who are completely different to the Urnfield culture!).

A good example of early Bronze Age europenas would be the Beaker People, known from much of central and western Europe. They seem to have highly valued archery and seem to be the basis of the DBA bow-heavy army list for early northern barbarians.

To fight your Mycenaeans and Hittites, you might want to look into the Lausitz (or Lusatian) culture who came down from the Baltic into the Balkans and (as the Phrygians) across to Anatolia in the Early Iron Age.

Mick Yarrow does a range of Bronze Age Europeans in 15mm link as does (or did) Falcon Miniatures UK. Anyone doing Villanovan figures or something simmilar might also have suitable figures.

…would any of these Europeans have fought against "civilized" armies like the Hittites or sea peoples?

It's possible that some Sea Peoples elements were central Europeans who had recently migrated to the Mediterranean region. Others were more likely natives of Sicily, Sardinia, Crete and Achaea. I can't agree that the Hittites were themselves Europeans. They more likely reached Asia Minor directly from the Indo-European heartland on the steppes.

The Hittites were an inland power who were less exposed than Egypt to Sea People raids, but the Sea People certainly sacked coastal Hittite vassals, such as Byblos, Cyprus and possibly Illios(Troy)/Wilusa.

However, the whole Sea Peoples phenomenon is Late Bronze Age, c. 1200 BC if you go by the academic consensus. Early Bronze Age is a thousand years before. On the third hand, your interst seems really to be Late Bronze Age.

I think Mycenaean, or possibly Minoan colonies would be your most likely 'civilized' opponents for Halstatters migrating into Illyria or down the Danube valley. Local people in Illyria, Thrace, and the Black Sea regions would also have opposed northern invaders; those locals were 'civilized' farmers, but not yet organized into states or building impressive cities.

If you like to work in 1/72 plastic, you might look for a couple of older sets. I'm not sure whether they're currently in production, but I'll bet there are lots of dusty boxes sitting in gamers' basements.

The Esci "Barbarian Warriors" set was last re-issued by Italieri:

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They're basically late Classical German opponents for Imperial Romans. However, the beardy Swabian harstyles and trousers probably go way back in history. This set features lots of spears and axes, some swords and very little armor, all of which is good for the infantry of a Halstatt army.

The other set I'll recommend is the old Airfix "Ancient Britons", most recently reissued by HaT:

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The infantry look very Gallic and the molds may be shot, causing a lot of flash on the figures. However, the 'Celtic' chariot in this set, such as it is, may be the closest thing you will find to a Kurgan chariot to mount your nobles.

At one time BUM made some pirate copies of the Ancient Britons and marketed them as Vikings or something. They're awful. Avoid them.

Best of luck with your project and have fun.

This is a difficult conversation… mostly because there is nothing written about these people.

I have a rather old (c. 1970?) book Ancient Europe by Stuart Piggott (or Pigott?) that is a decent introduction to the subject, though dated. You might want to track down a copy:

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Try to get a better price than these pirates are asking.

More recent and better illustrated is J. P. Mallory In Search of the Indo-Europeans. This volume doesn't have much to say about pre-Indo-European Europe, but your interest is mainly in the IEs, innit?

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Maria Gimbutas wrote extensively about pre-Indo-European Europe. Many people disagree with her theories about peaceful goddess-worshipping farmers whose culture was over-run and destroyed by those awful, awful Kurgan warriors. But her books certainly present masses of archaeological evidence for early European farmers:

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You are the most useful and resourceful people in the world.
thanks for all the links!

By the way. There's a very well known fresco from the Palace of Nestor in Pylos that shows Mycenaean warriors fighting with skin-clad barbarians. It's page 18 of this linked PDF:

PDF link

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This is the latest and most complete book on then topic by the reseacher Reinhard Schmoeckel From 1999.

And hier de liguistik proof by the reseach team from the Ankara museam that hethiers are indoeuropreans from 2012.

This was also the core of the Hethiter expo in 2002 in Bonn.
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The most complete expo on indoeuropean Hethiter every shown in the world.

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Greetings and have fun

Rudi, when you say that the See Peoples did not touch the Hatti (Hittites) in their invasion of the Near East, only the Egyptians, because they were related, I find this implausible. The Hatti were in Anatolia at least 800 years before the Sea People invasion. It was they who were partly responsible for the fall of the Hittites and for tribes such as the Phrygians and Lycians etc. who took their place in Anatolia.

Rudi, thanks for continuing the discussion.

It's widely agreed that the Hittite language was of the Indo-European language family. What's up for debate is, where did the Indo-European speakers in general, and particular nations of IE-speakers (assuming that language marks ethnicity), originate from?

Mallory and most authors I'm familiar with favor an IE origin on the steppes of the eastern Ukraine, east and north of the Black Sea. I know there is another school who prefer to place the IE heartland farther west, in central Europe.

I suppose Dr. Schmoeckel is of the latter school, and I'd be very interested to read his ideas. Unfortunately, my German is far too sketchy to read Schmoeckel in the original. If you can link me to an English-language version of his ideas, I'll be grateful.

Thanks and regards.

Oh. And are there any 1/72 plastic sets you recommend for Kurgans, Halstatters and other European Bronze Age warriors?

I cannot find any 1/72 "European bronze age warriors" as suggested above, the esci barbarian set does (almost!!!) Fit the bill.

My German is not good enough to even try to read something as complex as the book by Dr.Schmoeckel .

Thanks rudi for all of the links. It seems you really know your stuff. (Personal question) does your interest in the topic stem from an interest your early ancestors?

There is much more on this topic than I ever initially assumed!
Very useful stuff.

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Hi, i found here the first part of schmoeckel's work in english.

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Plastic is very tough on indoeuropeans… But as a kid was the brand atlantic the first choice. They had Trojans.

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I think the best fit would be this pack from ceasar miniatures.

Seapeople are available from Hat and from ceasar miniatures.
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Thank you are for the kind remarks….
In case of doubt i think a good rule of thumb for a IE indentification:
Straight sword?
Bossed shield?
Jewellery with labyrints?
Horned Helmets? ( based on there deity not on cows :))
Dolmen burial sites?

With this in mind look again on the pictures of the myceans, sardinians and Hatti….

The sea people tribes are for sure a mix from IE and seminte tribes as OG of Basahn and the Rafhaim allied later with them. Golith was a Rafaim in peleset service. And their symbol was also the labyrint.
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On the Hithiter i can only say that ca. 15 years ago the research changed completly and mainstraim research pushed that theory / fact that they are indo europeans and that the sea people had nothing to do with there decline. I always wondered if this has something to do with the Nato support for turkey and the plan to incoperate turkey in the euro zone?
The latest theory claims that the phenicians and carthagians are the survivors of the Hatti.

Finally i can only say that the in the last 15 years has the concept of the indo europeans and the sea people changed several times. Please also be aware that palestina claims their souverain state on the legal basis on the ownership of the Peleset and the Gaza stripe seapeople cities.

So any discussion on the topic of indo europeans has to be very carefully done.
Thanks you all for the time and your posts in the great forum.

If you need a native guide when you are on the continet, please feel free to contact me as guide.

Greetings and have fun

On army organisation:

I based my indo europeans on the army list 14 for DBM.
PDF link

Later i visited the neanthertal museum with a exipition on warfare in 5000bc. They had a mass grave after a tribal war in Talheim.
The did a complete reseach like the battlefield detectives with stunning results.

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Google pictures : neantherthal museum tatort talheim

Since than i am sure that even in the bronze and early iron age in europe the biggest battles are only familiy skirmishes.

:))))

Greetings and have fun…

All of the info is very very helpful!

Thank you so very much. There is more info on this topic than ever I imagined!

Rudi, I appreciate the kindness, and the information you bring to the table. It has been incredibly useful.

Rudi, thanks for those links, and for offering your service as my native guide. I might show up some day to talk more about the Late Bronze Age over some good Belgian beer. And if you're ever in southwest Ohio, look me up.

Austin, you should look at all this stuff on Plastic Soldier Review. There are more kits than I realized. Organized by period is probably the best way to go through them all, as in this link:

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Check out the Ancient World, Republican Rome and Imperial Rome categories for many sets of Germans, Gauls, Dacians, Parthians, Trojans, Mycenaeans, Sea Peoples…I already cover LBA in 15mm, but I'm really tempted by these plastics. They're shiney.

Awesome guys.
Rudi id love to take you up as a guide sometime!

Thanks for everything everyone.

Did you read this?

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Fascinating story that at least makes me want to get some bronze age European miniatures.

First of all I'd like to chime in and say that Rudi is indeed one of the nicest people you can ever hope to meet.
Hi big fellow, how are you?

While I don't have even the slightest idea about the period discussed, the only assumption I can make is that the Foundry Bronze age warriors are at least somewhat correct. If that's the case then there are lots of other ranges you can easily 'steal' figures from.

At first glance many of the Foundry (just to stay in scale)Celts, Ancient Britons and even Germanic figures can be used to complement the rather limited BA range.

I'm sure that Rudi is correct, when saying that at least some of the Foundry and Redoubt (they are exactly the same size!) Trojans and Mycenaean figures can be used, which means the possibilities become much better. With added Sea People and Hittite figures even more.

Perhaps some of the Cutting Edge range of figures can also be used, but it would require a much more knowledgeable man than me to navigate that site.
They are about to bring out new ranges of Achaeans and Sea people in 2016 which might also be suitable?