"Salute - ok." Topic

John T,

That was myself and my daughter who took great delight in destroying the models in your beautiful game and wonderful scenery.

We both had a very good time, and I have been going to Salutes on and off since 1995 at the old Kensington Town Hall.

My daughter Alex was very happy and has already asked when she can go again, so thats all good.

Good work boys

Glen

I enjoyed it. The floor is hard, so after a day my feet ache, but it was a pain worth enduring. I met up with a lot of people, had some good chats, enjoyed the Waterloo game/diorama – ok, it did not move but it was lovely to see, and with 2015 coming it bodes well for that Salute.

I pre-ordered a lot of my stuff, which worked well for me.

I like the mix of games, from professional down to cloth and lichen, but the cloth guys need to consider how to "sell it" better maybe, especially is just a sea cloth. But it is good to see so many games to play.

My highlight – Victrix 54mm Napoleoonic – I returned several times, even though I did not get to play it. But it looked lovely to me, so well done Victrix.

Trader of the day for me was Warbases – they had want I ordered, plus some impulse buys, plus time to chat. Great to see them doing well.

Salute and SLWG – seemed organised well to my mind, so carry on and I will be back. But I did bring my own food, and feel that some more seating would be useful please, as it was all pretty busy all day.

I don't mind the venue – I guess I get so caught up the whole excitement of the thing that I really don't notice it.
And I've a season ticket to London so I'm immune from the travel costs [well other than the £5.00 GBPk it costs to buy in the first place!]
And at some £10.00 GBP for 6+ hours entertainment … that seems cheaper than renting a DVD!
I do like the space to wander about [although it seemed busier this year – and was certainly heaving well into the afternoon]
Ok the food is probably expensive – welcome to London – but I'm under the impression the food at Newark "interestingly priced" for the standard – I wouldn't know as I'd always take a snack and drink [I'm only out for 12 hours or so, so I'm not likely to die from thirst or starvation – but I am tight and I'd prefer to spend the money on toys and buy Mcdonalds on the way home if necessary – on a similar score I don't buy food at the cinema]
If anything I'd say the show is just too short – I really don't get time to look at everything in all the detail I'd like and I'd be happy if they could extend the opening hours … No? … just a thought
[of course that would impact the traders & organisers in terms of setting up and getting home – and I suspect it's a long enough day for them as it is! – but while I'm wishing …]
I like the mix of games – from professional jaw dropping level to those that you feel you could do yourselves. I love coming away inspired – realistically I'm never going to make Route 66, or Waterloo or some of the other drop dead gorgeous games – so actually some of the more "mundane" games are actually more inspiring for me in that I feel I might be able to achieve them
I had a good day, & I guess at the end of the day that's all it's really about
So thanks to all to those who made it a great day for me, hope it was worth the effort for you and that the show will run again next year

Interesting comments from various people. And all good feedback from my perspective.

To be honest I don't accept that bringing your own food isn't a viable alternative: it's a choice. This year, I did pack my own food and eat it but didn't last year. Last year I bought a pastie and a bottle of coke from the food court and got change out of a fiver. I consider that acceptable. A similar 'meal deal' from Tescos for a sandwich and a coke and packet of crisps would be two quid less (but it wouldn't be hot).

I'm, afraid if the difference of two quid is that important… I don't know what to say. I did bring my own grub this year and it wasn't 'tasteless mush' (but then – after a lifetime of packed lunches for school, my mum managed to teach me how to make a sandwich…).

My final comment on the grub is this: I think the food is decent and at a decent price, bearing in mind the location. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this (ever bought a burger at a football match in London?)

My Ideal show would be a gencon like event – but that will never happen in the UK.

I went to the last GenCon at Olympia (in the UK) ten years ago. Spent two days there running a Dalek game for punters (a Dalek game very popular at Salute over the years). Dull as ditchwater: didn't get a single gamer. The show folded that year and didn't come back (at least not in the same way and with the same organiser)

Seating: you can never have enough and the people at ExCel should clear more often. I don't know what it's like now but I remember five years ago the Warlords were still arguing with the venue over why we – as the Warlords – had to pay for space and pay for seats so that one of their franchises could sell coffee in the venue. So I guess that – if that's still the case – that there will be as much seating in the venue as can be afforded (and by 'afforded' I mean – in the end – afforded by the people actually paying for the show: the gamers and traders who pay their wack).

Glen – glad you're daughter got to play: she's a demon with those Slammers! you'll have your work cut out playing against her indoors!

@ Guthroth – if that's the sort of Cost base analysis that you use to define what's acceptable in your hobby: "x pounds plus y pounds plus z pounds is the same as I can spend on some tanks" then – despite the fact that you've been before – I suspect Salute is just not for you! I find it cheaper to watch things on the telly than to go to the pictures occasionally but I still go because I enjoy the experience more. But if I didn't enjoy the flicks (and you didn't enjoy Salute) then I wouldn't go and, on that basis, you probably shouldn't either.

In the end, this is just a talking shop: the equivalent of a chat at a club night or other social occasion and we'll all have different opinions.

By definition, no one show can 'have it all' or please everyone all of the time. Stalin said (if I remember correctly) that "Quantity had a Quality all of it's own" and – on that basis – I guess the Warlords committee are getting it mostly right: there were an awful lot of people there, a shed load of games, many of which (from Joe Dever's photographs anyway!) looked to be quite stunning and more traders than I could get around in a day.

Everything else, it seems to me, is largely gravy.

John T

Hmmmm…..

Well. I always enjoy Salute. Some years don't have the number of 'wow' games that others do but there are always a couple. Personally I'm not too bothered if a 'pretty' game is not being played much – its job is just to look good! There are always plenty of other games being played…

As for the venue itself. Anywhere large enough to accomodate a show of this size is going to be a venue geared towards the trade show/conference market. The operators of such venues are in the business of renting out space. They expect the renters to decorate it as they want. I have been to a motor show at Excel and it looked very different. All the internal walls were removed and the manufacturer stands were massive glossy beacons of light. God knows how much it all cost, but I'm pretty sure Ford's resources are a bit bigger than the South London Warlords!

I just appreciate the low entrance fee and the space to walk about!

As for the food? Par for the course in London, innit?

Went to Salute for the first time in 3 years and thought it was great,although I still prefer Kensington Town Hall,( those days are just a distant memory)

I brought my own grub, as I did not want to pay London prices, and spent most of the morning eating to make room in my bag for figures!! I know some people are complaining about the price of food, but its cheaper than the NEC.

There was lots of space to walk about, helpful Warlord members, good games(Loved the Waterloo game). Concrete floors?- wear comfy shoes!

I do think they need to open at say 9.30 for people who have bought tickets in advance, I arrived at 10.00 and queued for approx 35mins and paid on the day.

Did not need to worry about signage with traders, as the show guide had a good map in the middle.

It took me 5 hours to get to Salute,and 6 hours to get home, and I'll do it again next year.

Oudinot

P.S

Great to see Wargames Foundry at Salute!!!!!

John T.
Thanks for the direct response. I think overall as this was the first ExCel Salute for me it was a culture shock from as you say a carpeted Olympia.
I had no gripe with the food, the food prices, (in fact I didn't buy any food), the games, the organisation.
In fact I had no gripe with the show. I wasn't really complaining about the venue – just observing that I agreed with the OP that it the acoustics and lighting were quite different from the days of old.
I fully understand that the Warlords have incredibly reduced choice for venues.
On the plus points, seeing that traders can drive into the hall that is a luxury compared to almost every other show – even Olympia.
I guess the hall is designed for trade shows where most stands provided their own lighting and are usually little compartmentalised stands which no doubt helps with the acoustic elements. However – we don't want a trade show. (BY this I mean the type that was being held across the corridor – this is NOT a comment on the commercial aspects of Salute)
We want Salute
We got Salute!
It is great to get so many gamers/traders/games together all in one place – and long may it continue.
As I stated before – I'm already looking forward to next years. No doubt I will be a little more prepared myself. And I think I may drive or come by car next year…..

Keep up the good work WARLORDS!!!

Mishima: spot on all round.

John T

I would have loved if it had only taken me five hours to get there and 6 hours to get back home…

I didn't really mention the acoustic issues in my original post, but the constant buzzing of noise because of the design of the venue meant that you had to speak WITH RAISED VOICES to make yourself heard over the background din.

I saw the game of the daleks at Gencon UK, it was an impressive game – but gencon UK was pale imitator of a real gencon. However the issue with tickets to play your game did not seem to ever be sorted out. I was booked months in advance to a number of games that were expertly run by dedicated and (poorly) rewarded GMs.

The food seemed overpriced in the food court – but it was not horrible.

I arrived early – so waited for forty minutes in the queue till ten, then about thirty minutes to get in.

My cost analysis
£63.00 GBP train ticket, Ģ 8 underground ticket, 20 quid for two sandwiches, a bottle of pop, a coffee, and a packet of crisps and a cake.

£11.00 GBP to get into a venue that is pretty much an aircraft hanger that is constantly noisy

£14.00 GBP spent on plastic purchases from Renedra.

(I could have spent a fiver going to Sheffield in a couple of weeks and picking up the same product with a discount)

I am glad that a number of people have sent private messages agreeing with me over salute, especially the static games/dioramas issue. Perhaps we can ask that only participation games are sought for future years bookings.

(one issue that concerns me – the rise of the gaming booth babe… I have started to notice it over the last few years at Salute and one or two other shows – is it a good or bad thing?)

The next good meal that I get at a wargame convention will be my first good meal at a wargame convention. I don't go for the food.

Looking at Joe Dever's slide show, it looks like Salute was an amazing show and I would gladly attend if I lived on the European side of The Pond.

"Ģ11 GBP to get into a venue that is pretty much an aircraft hanger that is constantly noisy"

It's £11.00 GBP to get into the biggest collection of traders, games and gamers in Europe, in about the only facility in London that can fit that many people in.

It is very cheap for what it is. Its run by a London warganmes club's members voluntarily – what do you think it would cost if it was done commercially?

That said, I do think some of the clubs whose contribution seemed to be not much more than a grounsdsheet and 2 blokes playing a game need to buck their ideas up and actually involve the visitors.

Well, another Salute gone- I believe this is/was my 28th- and yes, this one was again better than last years'.
I personally feel the Warlords deserve a big, loud 'well done' for organising such a massive event and that is exactly what they are getting from me.

Well done lads, It's people like you that make our hobby such a joy.

All in all 20 of our clubmembers crossed the Channel for this event and from what I've heard all of them will definitely be back next year. And a few more perhaps after seeing all the loot.

What's not to like anyway? All the traders you could ever wish for in one big place. And yes, those discounts they gave were very pleasant. Sometimes almost embarrasingly so. But much appreciated.

Lovely games! And yes I too prefer 'real' wargames to train- table perfect dioramas, but even with those you can often pick up good ideas.

There seemed to be be a lot of interesting participation games going on and if I would have had the time I certainly would have liked to play the new TFL game which looked fab, or that intriguing 'Brain' game at the other side of the venue.

Didn't get to see al the traders I wanted to or speak to everyone I hoped to see, but that was mostly due to me being stuck at our own game, taking two cigarette and lunch breaks- which equates to half a marathon at least- , my utter inability to have short conversations and Ooh! Shiny!

Anyway in my book the Warlords deserve a and roll on the next one please!

Completely off topic but Agent Smith has a daughter called Alex. I have a daughter called Alex. Hmmm.
Rest of post deleted as I realised I was about engage in an argument on the internet and that is surely madness.

If I have offended any of the organisers of the show by putting my comments in an open forum and allowing reasonable discussion of them, I apologise in advance, as my intention was not to be critical, but to comment on what I saw with my eyes.

You've not offended us at all. I have explained things we can control, and commented where we can't. But when it comes down to it, we are looking for somewhere that can comfortably hold 5000+ visitors, 500+ traders and 500+ gamers for a day, in London. Choice is minimal, so we make the best of it. And I think our best is pretty damn good.

Colin
South London Warlords

Well said, Colin.

John T

A second time at Salute for me. I first went a couple of years ago with my brother whilst he was back from New Zealand and he loved it, especially as I'd planned a few days together, including Duxford, meeting Bez (Happy Mondays) in Manchester on a night out and some airsoft. Photo with Rifleman Harris, the RAF Stargate game and the WWII sabotage game, post-Sealion, where I seemed to upset the organisers by abandoning the train bridge target once the alarm was raised and opting to plant charges in the undefended tunnel. He was a very happy camper and I enjoyed Salute – staying overnight next door was a bonus.

This time it was a bit of a last minute decision so I picked up a Laterooms bargain in Cheshunt for £30.00 GBP after work and headed down the M1. Transport/accommodation isn't something I'd really moan about anyway, as it's my choice to head to the Docklands, but in the event it was a breeze. I stopped off in St Albans on the Friday to watch a decent amateur play before enjoying a decent night's sleep at a De Vere. Dropping the car off at St John's Wood (free on-road parking) I took the Victoria Line and DLR to Excel, with no problems en route. No queue when I arrived at around 11.15 and I wandered around before considering buying anything. I took my own lunch, which brought the expenses side down still further. After the show I headed back to Leicester Square, spent another £30.00 GBP on a ticket for The 39 Steps and enjoyed a pint beforehand. Leaving the theatre after a very entertaining performance at 10 I was pulling up outside home near Huddersfield at 1am. For me, if I'm going to London for a games show then it's got to be part of something else and I fully enjoyed my mini-break. Money spent on fuel, food, entertainment and accommodation – £120.00 GBP Money spent on wargames stuff – £240.00 GBP (although I'm debating whether to EBay some of the painted B&B figures that may be surplus to requirements).

Things I enjoyed:

- The Hillman Game which I played. Good opportunity to try Rules of Engagement, although the timings seemed off. We actually only managed 3 turns in the time available and even sprinting for the objective as soon as the barbed wire was blown wouldn't have been enough. Enthusiastic and welcoming guys running it though and I liked the terrain.

- Radio-controlled tanks, even if I did end up being last man standing purely by default. I sent a photo to my brother to remind him of the tanks at Blackpool Pleasure Beach.

- Plenty of space and a really good array of traders. I've become a bit jaded seeing re-sellers and the same faces at some of the smaller shows, so that's a bonus. My purchases were more due to having so much on the go at the moment.

- In the end though I spent more than I'd planned. A load of 15mm Swiss Napoleonic infantry, plus assorted cavalry from the Bring & Buy. 2 supplements for Battlegroup Panzergrenadier (which I really like as a system) from Caliver. Some trucks and early German armour from the guys who do pre-painted plastic and resin in baking trays. 5 Matilda Is from SHQ (who I didn't realise did the damned tank before I've already assembled 4 Milicast) and some casualty markers from Warbases (who've given excellent service in the past). Not a bad haul and it all fitted in the small shoulder bag I'd brought.

Things to consider:

- The Bring and Buy. There was a lot of space in the hall and if the B&B was moved away from the wall you could actually walk around the other side to see all the stuff just piled at the back. I'd also segregate it into Ancients, Horse & Musket, C20th, Fantasy/Sci-Fi & Boardgames. Not much in the way of historical options and too much of a jumble. I didn't bother bringing anything after my last experience of selling.

- the Waterloo diorama was an example of set-ups that looked good, but just seemed to be an opportunity for people to stand around. Leipzig instead perhaps, as it's the anniversary? The 54mm Arnhem game 2 years ago inspired me to track down a copy of Crossfire. I do like seeing well-done games, but it does sometimes feel as though the modelling takes over, with the rules almost an afterthought. A little reminiscent of 'The Games Workshop Hobby' I suppose. Also I have a very strong memory of the Kamikaze game run at Northern Militaire a long time ago which delivered a a quick, fun game that you wouldn't normally get to play because of its scale. It didn't need amazing modelling skills to engage me as a young boy.

Personal taste:

- I'm not too fussed about steampunk games, but they are popular at the moment – there did seem to be a lot of similar games to that and less on the historical side. As you walked in there seemed to be more of a buzz to the right hand side. Maybe theme parts of the hall next year? That way there's a trader, demo and maybe participation game all close by. The big traders could go in the middle.

- The floor plan – small type, perhaps more coding on it or a plan with traders on, then a smaller one for demos and another for participation. The game descriptions could perhaps go on there? I fully admit I wandered a bit too much before sitting down to look properly but nothing really leaped out at me from the guide.

- Bit gutted I somehow missed the TFL stand and game. I'd have liked to play the RAF Blakes' 7 game, but missed the start of one game and was then occupied with Hillman. Hopefully I'll see them at another show.

Will I be back next year? Possibly, if my brother moves back to the UK. I may also have finished some projects and be more enthused at buying new stuff rather than finishing off units and armies.

Very rarely post. This year was my second, first last year coming down from Manchester.

For my money the best show around, expertly organised by a friendly and professional club. Having organised 2000 + per nite beer festivals I only have admiration for all the hard work that goes on throughout the year and on the day itself.

Quality everywhere, and something for all tastes. Rarely last an hour at a show but 5 + hours and still missed things.

So stop the gripes, constructive comments but a great round of applause for a job well done.

Here's to next year!

Ps: loved the Nantwich display /game – inspirational and the …. The list goes on

I thoroughly enjoyed it. It is my one weekend away from the family with like minded individuals. I am a 'self confessed' Frother and they put 6 games on this year – all of which Warlords managed to get in the same area (along with some last minute help from Artemis Black – thanks again Artie!). Foodwise – I take it with me to avoid the inevitable London show prices and can never understand why others don't. Bottled water is a lot cheaper from Morrisons. If anyone wants to see my pics (about 300 or so) – a lot of Frothers before and after the event included – they are on the inevitable blog – deartonyblair.blogspot.com – remember though, it's miniatures, not politics

"'As an American who has been lucky enough to have been at more than his share of these – some of you people don't know how lucky you are to have a show of this size and quality. We freaking dream of having a show like Salute…"

Uh, John, we do…in fact we have three, Historicon, Fall In and Cold Wars…might be some others…

db

My daughter and I had a great time. Emma's second Salute and she's hooked. Excellent day out, played several games, saw loads of old friends.

Very big pat on the back to the Scimitar Games Group and Victrix. Emma had a ball playing your games.

very much enjoyed the Grand Manner, Ground4, Otherworlds, Instant Armies and Rumbling Guns stands. Chatted to Neil Wilson and Matt Slade both who have done painting for me.
Here are my pictures.
link

An excellent show but needs to be two days to see all the games and traders properly.

Yes I know it would increase prices but I think it would be justified.

If you think entrance fees of £11.00 GBP is high try going to any other show at the NEC or Excel and you will be paying at least double and GW Games Day is £30.00 GBP just to see their tat!

I'm not too fussed about steampunk games, but they are popular at the moment – there did seem to be a lot of similar games

SF/F gamers are always moving onto the next big thing (GW fans excepted), in 5 years time it'll be something totally different. C'thulhu – for example – would seem to have fallen from favour at the moment as a choice of participation/demonstration game.

Actually Grumpy that is a good point – The Evil Empire charges far more for a "show" that just showcases their products. The SLWG put on an "amateur" show (in funding NOT in quality) that is open to all, for £11.00 GBP, and a freebie figure.

Not bad value in my book.

I travelled all the way from Sweden by plane (Ģ240) to England, spent £60.00 GBP on hotel (split room costs with two friends) and £90.00 GBP on food and transportation in England. I don't mind that at all as it was a free choice of going. It was my first time and I had nothing to whine about. Saw a ton of lovely games, talked to a bunch of very nice people in the industry and fellow gamers. We don't have shows like this in Sweden so I was more than happy with my trip.

Also spent some £180.00 GBP on the show itself.

If I had to comment on anything at all, it would be that I was surprised that the prices for products at the show were identical to what you have online. At conventions in Sweden stuff is usually a tad cheaper. Still bought everything on my "to buy" list and saved on shipping cost and hassle from a lot of manufacturers.

Salute is what it is due to its size, prestige and the fact that it's the main show in the capital city. It's become what it is today because it gets the crowds, the crowds generate the trade, the traders respond to the crowds, the venue gets bigger and the type of games run often take advantage of what is hot on the market. There are plenty of smaller, or mid-sized conventions on the calender that can feel more homely but there has to be a big beast of a show in London in there as well. Unless the hobby takes a serious dive and people give up gaming, a return to a venue like Kensington is never going to happen.

The trade side was good, the social side was good as well and if you want an example of how to do it well then the Crooked Dice team did a great job of both.

There seemed to be fewer games this year…that might be wrong but that's my impression and I've got to say I don't get the point of demonstration games. Get the public in there, moving figures and rolling dice so hopefully they'll buy the gear later.

Here;s my take on Salute

link

Bit of stuff about the venue and show, but mostly comments on what industry trends I believe that I picked up based on what I saw on the actuial stands.

Usual caveats about this being a subjective opinion on a 3 hour walk-around apply!

tim

Mad – I think I agree with all your points on that there blog of yours, especially your "trade views" (Essex, mdf, Foundry et al)

Madaxeman's blog said …

I think the £50.00 GBP went out of my wallet through a form of wargaming osmosis which seems to afflict me at many shows…

.. made me laugh … that just happens when you walk past so many stands at a show, whether you are consciously shopping or not …

Phil

The talk of going 'back to Kensington' is interesting (as well as impossible). It wouldbe a much, much smaller show of – now fifteen years on – a very different character.

Anyway, there is a very nice smaller show in London at the other end of the year ran by our mates at SELWG called (I always thought rather unimagiatively) SELWG.

It's similar in size to the old Kensington Salutes and attracts (probably) only a few less people. The reason Salute got bigger and bigger is it kept attracting more gamers, who wanted more traders and a greater choice of eye candy so it is what it is.

As far as I'm aware there were roughly as many games at Salute this year as last year, but I couldn't swear to it.

John T

Agent brown,

Its a small world lol!

As for salute, long may it continue and thanks for all of the hard work from John T and every Warlord.

I say it again thanks very much

Glen

Hate to be a doom munger but as per comments on Essex and Foundry – I think both are heading for the exit.

Bit gutted I somehow missed the TFL stand and game.

Transport for London had a game! Don't they have enough fun messing everyone around all week?

"heading for the exit" is probably a bit strong! I suspect a bit more thought and few extra quid spent on their display stands might make a world of difference to them both..

Essex I reckon have just been outpaced by others both in terms of their exhibition presence, and also in terms of the availability and awareness of more "interesting" 15mm historical ranges – and I do also wonder how commercially successful Salute ever really has been for 15mm historical manufacturers, as there are less every year.

However Foundry really surprised me and their presence seemed very half-hearted – even more so as they have an actual shop and so in theory have a retail presence to base their show presence on. The bloke who sold me a blister pack off their stand didn't even seem to be a permanent employee, just a bloke in a yellow t-shirt who had been hired to take £10.00 GBP/pack off the punters. I think they have been represented by Dave Thomas in the past, so if this was their first outing as a stand-alone company I sort of expected lights, bells, whistles and the "new" management to be very visible and trying to chat to everyone they could, but if they were I certainly didn't see them.

I really enjoyed it. I was so impressed i did not even notice the hard floor or poor lightning.

And prices, where I come from expect to pay 4 GBP for a coofee or a bottle of water/coke and 12-15 GBP for a lunch at a convention centre. So I do not complain about the prices.

Iīm very satisifed and would love to return next year.

I didn't even realise Essex were there – my usual six hours at Salute and I never see everything !

Which is sort of a compliment and also sort of a criticism.

Foundry have been at Salute under their own name before – they went a few times between 2006-2010, IIRC, and had much larger stands than they did on Saturday. Prior to that, Dave Thomas carried Foundry stuff at Salute. Even now he still has a few "bargain blisters" left.

I stopped at the Foundry stand and had a quick chat with Marcus, so the new management were on "the floor" I think we need to give the guys a chance as I think they are still trying to get things on an even keel, as it would appear that Foundry has been poorly managed over the last few years. Their stand was pretty small, but that is all they could get. I know they are looking to do more shows this year, so perhaps a fab new stand is will follow.

One gripe – and one only – from an otherwise enjoyable show.

The floor plan.

You need to rethink this, now that the programme it comes in has reached such "epic" proportions. It is unwieldly in its current form and needs to return to being a separate item. This year, the relevant pages weren't even on the same spread, so you could pull out the floor plan itself, but not the guide to who was doing what, and where.

Supercilious – an interesting post. The floorplan used to be on a three page pullout when the show moved to ExCel.

That'll be worth mentioning.

John T

Great show as ever.
The queue was awful, as usual – I got there deliberately half an hour late, at 10.30, and still had to queue for ages to get in, despite holding an advance ticket.
But without the ability to open up a bigger doorway and staff it with a lot more people, this issue seems insurmountable, and it's a minor inconvenience against the wonderful opportunity to see so much stuff, so many great display games, and so many chums, all in one place :)

I don't get the complaints about food prices. I went to Whistlestop in the main mall and bought a perfectly decent BLT sandwich plus a bottled drink for under a fiver. I also bought a couple of coffees during the day, and the coffee prices at Costa and so on, are exactly the same as coffee prices in the same chains on the high street. I guess if you don't live or work in London, it may be a bit of a shock, but believe you me, there's no great difference between prices for snack food at Excel, or any branded eatery anywhere else in London. It's an expensive city.

My only real gripe about Salute (and I whinge on about the same thing every year) are those few societies (or are they just individuals) who come along to the world's biggest showcase for miniature wargames, and proceed to play a turgid game between two blokes on top of an upturned Subbuteo cloth with a few dismal bits of scenery. Like a bad club night from the 1970s. I just don't get it.
Colin, you say you can't vet all games in advance, but plenty of show organisers do. Perhaps next year you could at least set expectations and make clear that you are looking for showpiece games, with something, visually, over and above the kind of thing you might do for a casual game with a mate on your dining room table.

I echo the comments about the B&B, although I never go near it these days – too many smelly bottomed blokes inconsiderately barging around with their bulging rucksacks :)

Apart from that – great show. Loved every minute of it. Well done the Warlords, and please keep up all your excellent hard work, so the rest of us can enjoy ourselves and criticise to our heart's content :)

My only real gripe about Salute (and I whinge on about the same thing every year) are those few societies (or are they just individuals) who come along to the world's biggest showcase for miniature wargames, and proceed to play a turgid game between two blokes on top of an upturned Subbuteo cloth with a few dismal bits of scenery. Like a bad club night from the 1970s. I just don't get it.
Colin, you say you can't vet all games in advance, but plenty of show organisers do. Perhaps next year you could at least set expectations and make clear that you are looking for showpiece games, with something, visually, over and above the kind of thing you might do for a casual game with a mate on your dining room table.

From the photo's I've seen I agree with you Captain Blood, as someone who had to pull out of this year as our game was not ready I feel sympathy with our fellow wargamers who put in a lot of effort to showcase our (not "the") hobby who find themselves next to someone who has put something together last minute and slapdash..
It's about the holistic approach to the game not just good painted figures or just good terrain or just a good idea.
DON'T GO OFF AT HALF COCK!!!!!

People are already looking to vote for "Best in Show" – so police it.

Its unlikely that if someone puts on a

"two blokes on top of an upturned Subbuteo cloth with a few dismal bits of scenery"

type of game in one year, that they will come back with 20 feet of railway standard terrain and award winning figures the following one!

Take names and kick arse!

In reality I would be interested to see how many times the same people come back with dismal games year on year.

Vetting games in advance isn't easy – what's your criteria going to be?

"Subbuteo cloth" could be a problem – we have used the baize from snooker table (all be it well dressed up) for years and at various Salutes, with a lot of plaudits. At today's prices it would cost £500.00 GBP to buy and I would be pretty hacked off if someone called it a "Subbuteo cloth" even by association!

If you vet you must publish conditions – 'no green cloth of a felt like substance'? – Not Cool!

Maybe you just publish one condition that says 'all games must be of a high visual quality'. At least that sets some sort of expectation. I don't think even the most thick skinned wargamer can really mistake the intent of that, can they? Or believe that a piece of tatty cloth and a couple of strips of cardboard road constitute 'a game of high visual quality'.

It's not a big deal. So many games at Salute are a feast for the eyes. Every year there are games that really stand out. But there are always a few every year that let the side down. Maybe they're just bloody-minded fellows who believe the game is the important thing, and the look and quality of the table and figures is neither here nor there. I guess it depends on how high the organisers want to set the bar. Or whether they want to set a bar at all.

I've never been to the Tactica show in Hamburg, but I've seen lots of glorious photos. They place a very high value there on 'only great looking games allowed'. All games are indeed vetted in advance by the organising committee. People wishing to run a game have to submit pics (unless they're already well known to the organisers). Everyone knows the standard is high and what's acceptable or not. Of course, Tactica is a much smaller show than Salute, and this would be another admin burden for some poor so-and-so at the Warlords, so I can understand why they wouldn't want to go to this level of Teutonic efficiency.

But it shows it's certainly not impossible to set show standards and get contributors to stick to them.

I guess it depends on how high the organisers want to set the bar. Or whether they want to set a bar at all.

I think that hits it on the head! As in most subjective things its on the margins where there are problems – we all know a "bad" game but what is good enough?

Away from Salute I've seem some really good games and some real poor ones too, its not just what comes to Excel every year.

I agree with the Subbuteo cloth sentiment, but am scratching my head as to how one would write a minimum requirement for Salute that didn't stop games liek the excellent Frothers ones which, though very simple, were v good.

Any thoughts?

I want to see games with really good rules, that engage the imagination and competitive instincts of the players in the spirit of the period being represented.

If this involves railway modelling terrain that's okay.

If it doesn't that's okay as well.

I hate the idea of having a 'standard' set for inclusion of a game that is about modelling and not wargaming.

What on earth is a 'high visual standard'? I think a lot of painting styles on larger figures these days are moderately hideous. I think a lot of highly modelled terrain is at best impractical and in some cases faintly ridiculous in context. It's mostly (if not all) a matter of taste, or worse yet, fashion. Plastic figures perched precariously on top of scale 10ft tall Teddy bear fur grass? And yet that was hailed as a visual standard a couple of years ago.

If you want to present a diorama which artificially constrains the tactical deployment of the figures that's fine – but it isn't the only, or necessarily the best, way of presenting the hobby of wargaming.

Lets have a variety of styles, standards and presentation.

Well … my 2p for what it's worth
Obviously I love the visually impressive games
[surely we all go to the shows partly for the eye candy]

However if the "subbuteo" level game is a good, engaging game and designed to show off the club/society you are representing in a typical normal club night should it not have a place in a show?
Perhaps not every game should be like that, as a good mix is always healthy for the hobby – but to ban them wholesale seems a tad harsh
I produced Wallenstein's Washing a few years back – it wasn't a visually spectacular game – it wasn't designed to be – it was to try and show that you can play a fun wargame with minimal cost and effort [as such] and hopefully get some younger folk playing historical games

I can't help but feel that if all "non wargamers"
[and by that I mean children and friends that come with the existing wargamer – and I do my bit to try and get others involved in the hobby]
see of the hobby is the high end professional stuff will it not put them off trying to partake?
So I think I'm with Gwydion's last sentence here

The Salute "Jason" game used a cloth base….

I reckon it is the game that counts – I do not need all games to be miniature railway layouts, but to have that "spark" that makes it good – either visually or game play/idea.

And I reckon Salute games normally manage that balance quite well.

And as the clubs putting on games are amateur organisations that do not get paid to display, nor sell product to cover their costs, I think it would be a sad day if "we" got too high and mighty over this. I am sure the people putting on games are trying, and maybe the portability of a cloth makes it viable compared to custom built terrain.

And as the clubs putting on games are amateur organisations that do not get paid to display, nor sell product to cover their costs, I think it would be a sad day if "we" got too high and mighty over this

Thanks – That pretty much covers all of it!

We have this debate every year.

On one side there's 'I don't pay money to see rubbish games' and on the other, there's 'We put on good games for no money'

Believe me there is nothing more annoying than making an effort when others appear not too but a standard is hard set and harder to enforce.

[Scene shifts to a baton wielding group of Warlords Stewards throwing "two blokes on top of an upturned Subbuteo cloth with a few dismal bits of scenery" clattering out into the food hall.]

"And don't come back next year you cheap punks!"

[Fade to black………………]

I agree wholeheartedly with Gwydion, Gary Flack – whose 'Wallenstein's Washing' I thought was a great example of a neatly presented, yet simple and attainable wargame – and Marc the plastics fan. Whilst any wargame put on public display should be well-presented, that does not necessarily mean model railway/diorama standard terrain. I see little point in portraying an image of the hobby that, while visually impressive, is unattainable for the vast majority of hobbyists, and is completely unrepresentative of the games that take place regularly in people's homes and local clubs.
A wargame may have splendid terrain, brilliantly painted figures and still be 'a rubbish game' if the rules do not generate historically credible results, or are so complex and brain-taxing to play that the game is no fun. Conversely, one can enjoy exciting, challenging and playable games with minimal expenditure of time and effort on creating scenery, painting troops &c.
For example, the late Paddy Griffith's 'Monkey Orange' game about the Desert War, presented at Salute many years ago, required only laminated A4 cards from which players selected their options and read off the results – more people probably played that game on the day, because it had a quick turn round time of about five minutes, than any other participation game then or since.
There have been many other participation games, such as those by Wargame Developments, that have employed stylised, simple displays and given much pleasure to those who took part in them.
Look at the photographs of games in 'Little Wars' and books by Featherstone, Wesencraft and Morschauser – no diorama standard terrain or professionally painted figures to be seen there. And as for the flat table top terrain and scenery in 'Charge' by Young and Lawford….
Those who wish to construct diorama standard terrain and enjoy doing so are to be congratulated upon their skill, but it should not become the main criterion by which the quality of a wargame is judged, and a demonstration game should surely allow the spectators to see a game being played, with commentary or other explanation, so they can understand how it works, not merely be a static display.
If one went to see a demonstration of a DIY tool, or kitchen gadget, one would not expect merely to gaze at the equipment lying on a table, but to see someone use it and explain its functions!