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"Young Wolf, Bad General: What Robb Stark ..." Topic


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1,975 hits since 15 Apr 2013
©1994-2026 Bill Armintrout
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Tango0115 Apr 2013 8:39 p.m. PST

…Doesn't Understand About War.

Very interesting article which I agree with the military concept.

"Edmure Tully should have talked back to the King in the North.

On last night's Game of Thrones, the new character of Lord Edmure (Tobias Menzies) can't understand why his nephew and king, Robb Stark (Richard Madden), upbraids him for beating the hated Lannisters. Robb explains that Edmure made a dumb battlefield decision — more on that in a second — that redounded to the Lannister enemy's benefit, all for negligible strategic gain. It's never wise to talk back to the King, but someone needs to tell Robb: Oh, you mean like your entire war plan?

Not only is Robb Stark the white hat of Game of Thrones — a warm, generous and reluctant king — he's portrayed to viewers as one of its fiercest warriors. "He's a boy, and he's never lost a battle!" rages his enemy, Tywin Lannister. But the Young Wolf is a case study in the difference between winning battles and winning wars. Robb is an excellent company commander, leading from the front and inspiring his men with both his bravery and his battle prowess. He's also a terrible general.

Robb's bad decisions as a king are shaping up to be a major plot point of the third season of Game of Thrones, much as they are in its source material, George R.R. Martin's A Storm of Swords. But the HBO series, which has the unenviable task of adapting a sprawling storyline for TV, obscures Robb's equally poor generalship in an understandable search for narrative economy. You can still see why the Young Wolf needs to rescue his war from himself this season, but the show doesn't make it easy.

For instance: the gorgeously rendered map displayed during the opening credits never shows you the Westerlands, an omission with inadvertent implications. South of the Iron Islands and just beyond the Riverlands, the Westerlands are the heart of Lannister territory, the source of House Lannister's immense wealth — and the field of battle for Robb's campaign. You can be forgiven for watching all the beautiful scenes with Robb and Lady Talisa in the second season of Game of Thrones and not having a clue where any of it takes place. (Tywin fuming that Robb is "too close to Casterly Rock!" is about as much as the show provides.) Without a sense of the terrain, you can't really understand Robb's war. So to make all this clear, we've mapped Robb Stark's march from Winterfell, through to last night's episode.
You don't have to be a West Point grad to see the problem here.

Robb launches his western expedition at the beginning of season two. He has fewer soldiers than the Lannisters, and no seapower. Instead of marching on King's Landing, Robb's plan is to attack the Lannisters' home turf until they sue for peace — and acknowledge northern independence — and his means is to "litter the south with Lannister dead." Robb defeats Stafford Lannister's army at Oxcross, the offense for which King Joffrey has Robb's sister Sansa stripped and beaten in King's Landing. Then he pushes to the western coast, at the Crag, to accept the surrender of its lord and Tywin's bannerman. So far, so good.

But at the beginning of season three, Robb marches his army way eastward to Harrenhal — something that isn't in the books — where Tywin ordered his brutal lieutenant Gregor "The Mountain" Clegane to command a garrison force. It's an inexplicable decision (one concealed, alas, by the show's poorly explained geography of the west): Robb has given up raiding the heart of Lannister country to cross over into the Riverlands, all to defeat one admittedly mountainous henchman. The Lannisters "have been running from us since Oxcross," Robb notes, even though the northern army is outnumbered. Robb might have thought harder about why that is.

By ceding the west, Robb does Lord Tywin a massive favor. Tywin faced a difficult decision at the end of season two: march west to fight Robb and risk Stannis Baratheon seizing the capitol at the Battle of Blackwater Bay, or march to King's Landing and risk Robb laying waste to the Lannister stronghold. Once Robb leaves the west, the Lannisters face no pressure at all. Suddenly, Robb is caught between the remnants of the Lannister field army to his west and the Lannister/Tyrell alliance at King's Landing. Whatever battlefield successes he gained on the Lannisters' ancestral doorsteps grow more ephemeral every day…"
Full article here.
link

picture

Do you agree?

Amicalement
Armand

Green Tiger16 Apr 2013 2:26 a.m. PST

Don't worry, he's got some more terrible decisions ahead. He's not alone either.

Rapier Miniatures16 Apr 2013 3:20 a.m. PST

Actually this campaign and the battles and the consequences are the problem of a 20thC man working out how 14thC campaigns worked.

In reality Robbs decision is sensible as his army (if they have done the job properly) now have nothing to live on in the Lannister heartlands and neither do the Lannisters, they have the stark choice of remain and starve or move out.

Until after the next planting season, there is nothing to live on for armies in that land.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP16 Apr 2013 5:46 a.m. PST

IDM.

If you've read the books, you know why. If you haven't… well… okay, no spoilers from me.

Dervel Fezian16 Apr 2013 6:27 a.m. PST

The show is now diverging away from the books…..

Probably because they want a fourth season :)

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse16 Apr 2013 7:18 a.m. PST

Henry V and the Black Prince wandered aimlessly about too.

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse16 Apr 2013 9:21 a.m. PST

The way the show is changing the books, maybe an invitation gets lost in the mail.
How did that happen?
Maybe Gregor Clegane ate the raven?

Thomas Thomas16 Apr 2013 11:16 a.m. PST

Robb Stark is an excellent though not perfect startgist in the books where the reasons for his decision are clear.

They have changed some of his decision in the mini-serias for unknown reasons. This makes some of them baffling but this has to do with goofy TV reasons not defects in his strategic decision – call it an ill timed television time out – can't blame that on the coach.

For once a fantasy novel actually has characters using strategy other than my magic sword is better than your magic sword.

Read the books and be amused by the mini-serias.

TomT

Green Tiger16 Apr 2013 12:35 p.m. PST

That's inetersting – perhaps teh TV people realised taht killing off absolutely everyone wasn't the best way to win audiences ?
Apologies if this is a spoiler but it sounds like the series will be different (not seen it yet)anyway.

Tankrider16 Apr 2013 2:37 p.m. PST

When does hapless Brutus from ROME get a chance to be a studly dude in an HBO series instead of a "can't hit the boat with a fire arrow and really screwed up the campaign" dufus??

This guy needs a new agent!

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP17 Apr 2013 10:16 a.m. PST

I doubt they can diverge *that* much. Like in the LotR films, it's one thing to trot Sam and Frodo off to Osgiliath, or have Aragorn fall over a cliff, but this change would be the equivalent of having Boromir pop up alive and well in Minas Tirith, saying, "I got better."
Plus, as much as I disliked the event, it's a shocking moment that totally dispels the reader's notions as to who or what is going to Save the Day— or even if anyone is. In Martin's books there are no heroes you can count on (or villains, either). I doubt HBO is going to pass on such a dramatic kick in the head, which is also so central to the plot. (Well, one of the plots. Many, many, plots. Too many plots, IMHO.)

Thomas Thomas17 Apr 2013 12:00 p.m. PST

That's inetersting – perhaps teh TV people realised taht killing off absolutely everyone wasn't the best way to win audiences ?
Apologies if this is a spoiler but it sounds like the series will be different (not seen it yet)anyway.


Actually the serias has so far killed off more people than the books. Many characters that are alive and kicking in the books have died in the mini-serias (or been entombed).

By "everyone" I assume you mean some favorite character – the vast majority of major characters are still alive and well (sort of well) – but in a deperature from most fantasy/Sci-Fi some guys not wearing red shirts have died.

TomT

kreoseus217 Apr 2013 2:17 p.m. PST

Poor syrio….

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse17 Apr 2013 7:11 p.m. PST

I don't care what Martin says. I think Jaquen is Syrio. grin
And he will be back!

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse17 Apr 2013 7:14 p.m. PST

Edmure gets no respect. grin
Nor does he get any from Jaime in Book 4!

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