"What did the church at Plancenoit look like in 1815?" Topic

I suspect that we will never know, but before I embark on a conjectural reconstruction, I thought I'd try at least to rule out the possibility that we do know what it looks like.

The church was originally XVth century. However, the present structure appears to have been heavily rebuilt in the gothic revival style by the architect Coulon in 1857. Not simply the facade and tower, but the windows on all elevations are of this style. I suspect the church was pretty much entirely rebuilt.

I have failed to find a topographical illustration of the church that pre-dates the rebuilding.

I know of two depictions of the fighting on 18 June 1815 that illustrate the church. These are both German and neither are contemporary.

Carl Röchling (1855 to 1920) must have painted the scene long after the church was rebuilt. The tower of his church looks rather german to me. The churches of the lasne region have a rather distinctive style of steeple, a tradition that the rebuilt church follows.

The painting by Ludwig Elsholtz is apparently signed and dated 1843. I have little information on this artist, though he was not local to the scene. What, if any, research either artist undertook is unknown to me. He shows a steeple, albeit of a simpler style.

Each artist portrays the earlier church differently. Both depictions may be entirely conjectural.

I suspect that the best option is to cobble together something based upon the appearance of other churches in the district, such as Ohain, but if there is any information out there specific to Plancenoit church, I'd welcome a chance to learn of it.

Yes, you can look at other churches and their typical style at the time. It's based on a basic design for an early christian church. I'm guessing that the original church has been lengthened, widened, and the main tower added onto vertically. My guess is that probably the only part of the original church (from the exterior) is the bottom 2/3 of the tower. It most likely began it's life as a simple bell tower with a gable roofed structure behind it.

Here is a picture of a typical, Early Christian/Anglo-Saxon Church:

geograph.org.uk/photo/133381

I found this painting online, which may show the closest thing to what it may have looked like in 1815:

This model pic I found online may be pretty close as well:

link

If they aren't spot on, it still should give you enough to make it "close enough".

I hope that helps.

David G.
gamerarchitect.blogspot.com

Thanks, Mr G.

The picture you have kindly posted is that I mention by Ludwig Elsholtz (1843) and, in my view, is much the most convincing representation I have seen.

The model in your link has the distinctive steeple seen on these Belgian churches.

I think this is likely to be similar to how Plancenoit church would once have looked:

I was surprised when I saw a photo from a few yards back a few years ago. I think I remember it was on a small rise as opposed to the immediate area.

Of possible interest?

From

link

bcosenza.free.fr/plancenoit.htm

link

Amicalement
Armand

Tango01, yes, this is the rebuilt church. The facade stones are said to have been taken from the original structure.

The pre-1857 structure could have been part stone and part brick (e.g. like Glabais church, pictured above)

I note a number of churches in the area have stone towers (with steeples) but the main body if the church is brick, sometimes built above older stone walls.

Another example is Ohain:

Nice church too my friend.

Amicalement
ARmand

Siborne's model at the National Army Museum would show the church as it was in the 1830's.

Allan

In addition, Craan and Siborne show the same building footprint. Both indicate the church located on a shallow mound.

Allan

Heck, the mound is still there, if you approach from the Prussian side of advance. But it is very subtle indeed and of no military significance (now anyway). Couple of feet (max) elevation to the wall from the North East side

This has been a very interesting exchange. Siborne's work was, of course, well after the battle. Adkin (and you have to admit….he does seem to know his stuff) shows a picture, without attribution, on page 128 of "the book", which looks very like the simpler design of Ohain. Almost makes you wonder if it is actually Ohain…but, no, surely there is evidence somewhere. Primary sources pre 1815 please…..

Siborne's model, that is an excellent point. The Adkin picture I have not seen.

I have looked at the NAM website. There are two shots, one aerial, that, from the layout, must be of the village of Plancenoit.

Allowing for the limitations of the shots and the scale of the original, we can judge the building to be pretty much the simple configuration seen at churches like Ohain. The tower appears to be stone with a simple steeple. The facade also appears to be stone. The walls of the nave cannot be seen. The tower stands in front of the pitched roof of the nave, as at Ohain. The hipped roof at the east end is clearly seen.

The detail is slight, but it confirms pretty much to the Ohain-type church I had assumed for Plancenoit, and looks credible.

Though you would think someone would have sketched the real thing at some point between 1500 and 1857!

Any developments in five years?

So, I noticed on the Siborne model of Plancenoit church that the perimeter of the cemetery grounds is covered with bushes/trees. Wonder what that is about? but seeing how he investigated the grounds personally and paid so much attention to detail would this be a critical feature of the church at the time of the battle that has been overlooked since? Lots of vegetation lining that stone wall according to his model. I want to do a rendering at some point of second or third attack on Plancenoit with the back of the church showing the avenues of approach and defense with the debris of previous assaults. Maybe the bush/tree cover shown by Siborne is an exaggeration of a few trees and bushes? I would like to get some photos of the model to see what he saw like the actual slope of the grounds at the time, dimensions, whether the structure was lengthened and widened for instance. It would be a great chance to illustrate the events based on testimonies like Gen Pelet.

If you go onto Google Earth you can have a look at Belgian churches which will give you a flavour of the general style.

I would suggest you start at Tongrinne near Ligny.

Many of these structures are 1815 vintage and I found it fascinating ‘driving' around as research into my Ligny re fight.

Best wishes,

Chris

Also see link which shows nice view of the current church from the rear.

@Westerner
Siborne must have sketched as part of his survey, though I have never seen any. Perhaps they exist in his papers or were lost.