"Westphalian Cheveauleger early or late?" Topic

I'm wondering which era to depict the Westphalian Cheveauleger and Westphalian Guard Cheveauleger in. I think the figure difference is that they got lances in 1811/12.

The line, at least, were active in Spain, so that is one reason to get the figures with sabers. I don't know the history of the Guard.

Some of the cavalry went to Russia. I'm interested in any of their actions, which will feed into my decision.

I will be buying the figures from Elite (28mm)

link

The only lacers the French had in Spain were the Vistulas; the Berg; and the Westphalian. The latter two started without laces, but as there were so few units with lances, I did 8 of each to do a composite "regiment" of 24; or can use them as a lancer squadron with Hussars and Chasseurs in 4 squadron units. I can attack with the lancer squadron in the center, flanked left and right by light horse, with a 4th squadron bringing up the rear to exploit victory, or cover a loss.

I did 8 as a "squadron" (or 2) of the regiment that entered Spain with the I Corps (as I recall?). I converted figures to do 4 lancers, two second rank with carbine, a trumpeter as shown on the Elite site, and the officer, who will eventually have the regimental standard.

These folks also served at one time with Suchet in eastern Spain, along with the 13th Cuirassiers; the 24th Dragoons; and the 4th Hussars, all Suchet' corps cavalry.

I painted the unit just as shown in the Elite site – orange facings; trumpeter in light blue, with colpak.

Sorry, I don't remember any specific actions for these Westphalians.

GdeP

I painted the unit just as shown in the Elite site

Nicely done.

You mention that not all the Cheveau-leger of the line regiment in Spain were armed with lances. Googling around, I found a post which stated that the Cheveau-Leger Guard only ever armed their first squadron with lances.

I'm inclining to getting the sabre armed regiments and then just a squadron of each armed with lances. That way I could switch a squadron of saber armed figures for lancers for late Spain or Russia.

From reading the Osprey, it looks like the Westphalians were busy in Spain (until 1813), in Germany in 1809, in Russia in 1812 and then marginally in the 1813 campaign.

To my knowledge, the 1st Cheveaulegers never got any lances. (Or at least I see no mention of it, on their TO&E). Their remnants stayed in Spain for the duration.

The 2nd regiment was created in 1813 ostensibly to replace them, but was cancelled in favor of the Guard Cheveaulegers. What few troops they'd assembled, were sent to the Guard Cheveaulegers.

The Gd. Chev was apparently intended as a parade unit only; 3 SQNs and a depot. Interestingly, looking at the list of officers of that regiment, I do see a few who were transferred from Lancer regiments, both French and Polish. But it appears that the 1st SQN received their lances only in October 1811. The other SQNs were not lance-armed.

As far as combat troops are concerned, I'd say: Not Much. The 1st regiment was sort of notoriously poor (one alleged reason for sending them to Spain was so they'd stop molesting the local Westphalian civilians near their barracks.) And they melted away in any event, to almost nothing in about 8 months.

The 2nd regiment was never formed. And the Guard regt. was always understrength and I don't think saw any combat until the Westphalian collapse in October 1813 when they were part of the rout that followed Chernashyev's capture of Kassel.

Looks like I will put my Westphalian Lancers into the brigade commanded by General La Mithique, first of my imaginations units!

Sources common to most of us cited the regiment as having been really great. I do not have the Embleton book on the Peninsular War at hand, but he shows one of the troopers in baggy grey/bronw(?) baloon overalls, and with a pistol instead of carbine hanging from the sling. I remeber good comments in that book about them. But then it seems universal to rate German cavalry better-handled than French in most of our common sources.

GdeP

Yeah, it's tough to find anything much on the Westphalians in English. Connelly loved them, Gill had mixed feelings about them, but when it comes to detailed information about the specific units, you have to go to French- and German-language sources.

One of the reasons I'm writing a book about Westphalia, in fact, is that nobody has ever done so in English. I was working last year in the Hessian archives in Marburg, and found some really interesting documents about how much the Westphalian military cost, on a unit-per-unit basis, which offers up a lot of information about men, horses, equipment, supply, etc. For example, the Cuirassier regiments were actually cheaper than the Hussar regiments; an unexpected discovery for me. Considering their relative combat performance, loyalty, and reliability, that makes the Westphalian Cuirassiers a real bargain compared to most of the rest of the army, which was shaky, desertion-prone, not likely to see much action, and very expensive!

Thanks for the information. It makes it easy for me to order the right troops!

Westphalian Cuirassiers a real bargain, compared to most of the rest of the army, which was shaky, desertion-prone, not likely to see much action, and very expensive!

That seems to hold true for the Saxon cavalry over their infantry. Perhaps it was due to the status commanded by hoofers over foot sloggers.

I look forward to reading your book.

I guess the 1st Cheveaulegers had four squadrons.

I will do my Chevauleger Guard in three squadrons of 8 men (1:20) with the first being lance armed.

One of the reasons I'm writing a book about Westphalia…

Sam,

What kind of book is it? A history of the state, of the military's organization, a battle history?

Ed

"What kind of book is it?"

All of the above, hopefully. Nobody has ever written a history of Westphalia in English, and the last person to do so in German was in 1893.

The only thing that has been covered in English is the army, and then only as chapters or sections in books about broader topics or specific campaigns (such as Connelly and Gill.)

So I'm writing about the state, the society, the economy, religious policy, the military, the whole works. I find it fascinating: 19th century "nation building," to use our modern parlance. Westphalia is a great example of the limits of the Napoleonic system applied beyond France.

I'm about 80% done with the research. This summer I need to go back to Marburg to do some more work with the huge Hessian collections there. I've covered much of the ministerial archival files that are in Berlin, the regional collections in Braunschweig and Wolfenbüttel. I also need to look at the state archive in Hannover, probably next year.

So I suspect it will be at least 2015/16 before the book appears.

Thanks! Sounds fascinating indeed!

Cheers,
Ed

Thanks for the above- really interesting. Fascinating comment about the relative cost of the Westphalian Cuirassiers vs Hussars. Does that include the purchase and maintenance cost of the mounts, which of course is typically one of the biggest factors in the expense of mounted troops?

One of the reasons for the 'lightening' of cavalry in several German armies in the period eg Saxons and Bavarians was to make use of the very cheap mounts available from Poland and elsewhere in the East. Several of of the Prussian Dragoon regts in 1806- and pres some post 1806- also used a majority of smaller 'Polish' horses.

Westphalia was obviously one of the major breeding areas for heavy mounts, so there might have been a domestic discount, but the French also placed heavy demands on this resource. So if the unit (in economic terms) recruiting and running costs including horses of the Westphalian Cuirassiers was LESS than the Hussars, that's quite a significant discovery.

PS- the Guard Chevaux-Legers were at at Valutina and Borodino and fought pretty well at both, in the latter being committed to the big cavalry engagement beyond the redoubt in the afternoon.

"Does that include the purchase and maintenance cost of the mounts"

Yup.

One thing I'm noticing about the Westphalian records is that they often hid military expenses off-budget in the prefectural expense accounts. That's particularly true with things like veterans pensions, remounts, even food and fodder. I've seen expense reports submitted to provincial officials from regimental commanders, for things that are never on the military budget. I haven't found anything that specifically indicates that the real cost of a Cuirassier regiment was fudged in this way, but it could have happened. (Of course, it could have happened with the Hussars, too.)

"Westphalia was obviously one of the major breeding areas for heavy mounts"

I don't believe so. The annual economic reports don't show much in the way of horse sales. Only about half of Westphalia was good pasture land, and only after the Hannoverian provinces were added in 1811. Of course, the horses might not have been "sold," they might have simply been taken by the French.

"the Guard Chevaux-Legers were at at Valutina and Borodino"

Sorry, yes, I neglected their first iteration in my description above.

It was the Hanoverian areas I was thinking of- which definitely were one of the heartlands of breeding such horse types- and still are. Didn't realise they only became part of Westphalia in 1811- what were they before?
The whole area would though have been a bit denuded of service age horses by the mass French confiscations from the disbanded Hanoverian and Hessen-Kassel armies in 1803 and 1806. Probably swiped a lot of the breeding stock from the state studs and pressed them into service too knowing the French….

Very interesting research.

"Hanoverian areas I was thinking of… Didn't realise they only became part of Westphalia in 1811- what were they before?"

French-occupied and in a sort of stateless limbo. In the big annexations of northern Germany in December 1810, Napoleon took away two departments in western Westphalia and replaced them with two departments from southern Hannover. The rest of Hannover was annexed directly to France. It's confusing because there was a period of a few months during which some old departments were broken up and bits reorganized here and there, in order to keep most of the departmental names in place, even though they now ruled over different regions.

"The whole area would though have been a bit denuded of service age horses by the mass French confiscations from the disbanded Hanoverian and Hessen-Kassel armies in 1803 and 1806. Probably swiped a lot of the breeding stock from the state studs and pressed them into service too knowing the French…."

That's the impression I get. It would also explain the drop in farm productivity in Westphalia, as time went on. (Although that's part of a general trend of economic decline during the Continental System, so it's hard to pin on just one cause.)

In the former Brunswick (the "Oker Dept." of Westphalia) the French definitely confiscated a very high percentage of the horses, and then presented the locals with bills for the expense of maintaining them. Classic.