"15mm Upgraded M113s?" Topic

I have some near future mercenaries that don't really feel like riding around in BMPs like all their buddies do.

Is there much out there in 15mm for upgraded M113s? Cool ones with turrets, applique armour, etc. I figure by ~2035 or so, even those ones will be cheap enough for my little lead scoundrels to operate whilst toppling African governments ;)

The Dutch YPR 765 from QRF might be worth a look:

link

If you're not too wedded to having a turret, the Peter Pig Zelda with the applique armour might also be a suitably swanky option:

Ooh, I must have missed the Dutch YPR 765 when I was browsing QRF earlier. Looks nifty!

I wonder if anyone makes an Aussie M113 MRV?

Or the Gavin(?)… At least you can tell where to find the turret.

OMG please do not refer to the M113 as a "Gavin".
PC,Track,BOX or One one three are all terms we used …Never Never in 30 years have I ever heard it Called what you did….Mikey

Huh? Gavin refers to a particular Turkish variant, which is pictured in my post above… The one with the BMP turret.
At least I'm pretty sure it's Turkish…

Gavin would be an odd all-encompassing nickname for the M113 family. Might as well call them Barbaras or Georges in that case ;)

QRF has 'The Beast', as the Australian FSV with Saladin turret was sometimes known as: link They also have the Scorpian turret version

IIRC, the Gavin was the unofficial name of the M113 series. Since most other US Army armored vehicles were named after a general (a practice the British started with US Lend-lease equipment), the Gavin was bestowed upon the M113, specifically the later variants that lost to the Stryker.

BTW: Gavin was an actual general -- link

Damon.

The Turkish version is the ACV-S, fitted with a BMP-3/4 turret. It's based on the ACV-300, which is an upgraded AIFV (YPR765). However the ACV-S is stretched, with an additional roadwheel each side, so it's about a metre longer. However it was an experimental prototype, with no actual takers.

That said, if it's for near future or sci-fi and you want to try and fity a BMP-3 turret onto the AIFV chassis, drop me an email and I will sell you one :-)

The whole "Gavin" moniker seems to have been made up a while back in an article comparing tracks with Strykers, and acquired a life of its own. AFAIK nobody who's actually used a 113 has ever called it a "Gavin" and they tend to get quite irritated about it…. ;-)

…perpetuated by the Federation of American Scientists Military Analysis Network…

link

"The M113A1, informally known as the Gavin…"

Geoff
I love you man But there are countless things published by people who don't know and even those who should know better that are grossly incorrect. The Fact Is that name was never officialy or otherwise used to describe the One one three by the only folks that matter we who served.That said its a new world and freedom rings. I can't shoot people that irritate (currently anyway till the next Dust up at least)me.
The most Important thing is you are a good and decent man who makes outstanding models so I will just agree to disagree…..Mikey

I didn't say they were right, I just said that "official" websites are perpetuating the myth that it was ever called such a thing. The problem with the internet is that it pops up in one place, then is copied to others, which seems to add validity and weight to the argument.

In the interest of balance (and to ensure Mikey doesn't shoot anyone, and loves me even more to buy more things):

link

Some advocates have indicated that the M113 is also nicknamed the "Gavin", after an Army general who was influential in the development of the M113 in the 1950s. This is not however, an official designation, and there is some question about the extent to which actual users of the system use this name…

One observer wrote that "In more than 30 years working in the defense industry, I have never, never heard anybody use the name "Gavin" for the M-113. Not in the US nor in any of the many countries that use the vehicle. Not in the military forces, not in the companies that build and equip it, not in the groups that retrofit and repair it. This usage appears not only to be "unofficial", it is entirely fictional and I believe that you may have been the victim of a hoax or deliberate disinformation." "

I believe Fidelis Models used to make some M113 accessories in 15mm scale.

I think the name 'Gavin' was invented by that total nutjob who advocates tracked vehicles for every possible combat use. I thnk his website was/is called 'Combat Reform', but beware that it has a very high quota of fruitloopery, tery and wittery.

Yep, that's the one – zealots are so entertaining…. ;-)

Thanks for all the replies, guys.
Kind of regret ever typing, "Gavin," though ;)

Sparky lives !

You can make these with some spare M2 Bradley parts!

link

Billy Yank

Well, I took the plunge.
combatreform.org
He really doesn't like Strykers and is trying to get the M113 named the 'Gavin'. He refers to it as such continually.
His arguments aren't helped by embedding YouTube videos of, for example, the closing credits of Thunderball at seemingly random points throughout the site.
Most odd.

Khurasan Miniatures has some 15mm stuff for SciFi that look like futuristic versions of modern vehicles. You might find something usable in there.

Khurasan is great, and I've spent many a penny there, but they don't really have anything resembling a sci-fi shoebox on tracks.
Rebel Minis' new modular vehicle might be the ticket, though!

Well, it depends – let me flash out some "other" options too.

The M113 is quite obsolete design, and is pretty much moving into 3rdworld countries armed forces or at least in 2nd line duties in less-well budgeted armed forces. In ~2035, Im quite sure it would be in similiar role than BTR-152 or Alvis Saracen is nowadays. Still in service in some less-glorious places and armies, even some "real" armies still storaging them in role or another, but mostly seen as "meh".

For the mercenaries (even if state-backed!) the cheapest option is the best option, and much of their gear is pointed out by what they can get and what they can afford to run. Tracked vehicles are expensive to maintain, and consume more fuel when compared to their wheeled cousins – not to mention that the wheeled ones being notably faster! And to be noted, the fuel aint coming any cheaper, no matter if notably cheaper synthetic oil would be created and issued in large quantities as the leashes are still on the hands of large fuel companies..

OFC there is option where some state is leasing the stuff for the mercs from their war-time storage – in situation like that, it would be more likely that the vehicles would be more heavily upgraded, but IMO it still would more likely to be stuff like LAV-25 (if western backed – moving out from the USMC in decade to come), TpZ Fuchs (cheap, reliable, and slowly moving to the replacement bin of the western armies), French VAB (quite obvious – cheap, largely available and produced in large numbers), Saxon APC (again, obsolete design being replaced – and quite exotic layout!) or even BTR-80A (BTR-80A is slowly moving off from the russian service due to the new BTR-82 design which, as far as I know, is coming to be the new main APC of the russian armed forces, and if the wikipedias sources do keep their point, the BTR-80 and A-variant have allready started to make progress towards africa).
And yes, there is the "another set" of options. Offered by PRC and South American states, most notably Brazil – EE-11 "Urutu", manufactured by QRF in 15mm, been in service long but still servicing in middle-east and africa and south-america in small numbers. From PRC there is two most obvious contenders, Type 63/YW531 (available from QRF – old clunker, but IMO even more likely than M113 due to the chinas growing interest towards africa) or WZ551 (which, sadly, is not available yet – IIRC the Geoff of QRF has made some statments its being WIP. I might be wrong, tho. But yeah, type 92/WZ551 would be more likely, its well armed, mobile and cheap, and ofc, seen in africa allready – and yes. Obsolete in 2030s)
Third option is to take mine resistant patrol vehicle instead of actual APC, like Panther or Mastiff or some of the older south-african models.

IMO the "deep modernisation" of M113 is not likely, more likely those will be like the ones seen in syria, with more or less ad-hoc upgrades regarding firepower or armour, as they were not meant to be in the frontline but due to escalation of situation, they were pulled to the front and put into fighting role they were not meant.

But if they would be upgraded: Most likely additional armour (like the ones seen on the Israeli M113s and in Peter Pigs range) or heavier slat armour to defend them against RPGs (hi-tech options include stuff like IED jammers or actual second hand counter measure or soft/hard APS devices, but often maintenance of these require more technical acknowledge than would be available – tho, if state backed, oereven if not, its not impossible for them to have some former high-class military technician in their ranks), and remote controlled weapon stations (quite new nowadays, but oldies in 2030s) like M151 Protector, Rafael OWS or some chinese model. And ofc, the russian/soviet/former eastern block manufactured heavier models.. If low-tech option is preferred, something like I-GPK seen in HMMWVs might be possible – or similiar system.

These dont require massive rebuilds (unlike fex. mounting of armored cars turret into M113 does) and wont add nearly as much weight to vehicle. And the engines might be changed too, or additional fuel tanks due to the M113s notably short operational range.

I would love an NM135 in 15mm for those Northern Flank games: