"To Shoot or Not to Shoot?" Topic

This is meant as a bit of fun. Do you take the sniper shot or not?

SCENARIO: The Target is sat at the table under the parasol, presently turning towards a small dog lying on the ground (see below). He is positively identified as a high value German officer and his elimination would greatly assist Allied operational planning prior to Operation Overlord.

ALLIED SNIPER: The Target travels with an armed guard. His stop at the café was a random event but you (and your spotter companion) happened to be at an adjacent building across the river and bridge and see a wonderful opportunity.

The Target is popular amongst German troops and has drawn a small group of off-duty soldiers who want to see him and wish him well. All German units in the town are believed to be north of the river, and usually consist of a company of regular infantry.

Exit from the building's top floor level to the street is by three flights of stairs taking approximately 2 minutes. The streets are not busy but a series of alley ways will provide some cover for escape in the near vicinity. The Marquis will be able to assist your escape if you avoid immediate capture.

GERMAN: German intelligence reports mention marginal Allied Ops in the vicinity and the local Marquis are not regarded as a threat. The atmosphere is relatively relaxed. The officer has randomly decided to stop at a riverside café.

All German units in the town are believed to be north of the river, and usually consist of a company of regular infantry.

What happens next? Take the shot?

YES or NO

The photograph was originally posted by Tango01, so thanks.

Yes. Why wouldn't you?

Which way is north?

Yes, second shot at the vehicle engine, then run like hell.

No if there are SS units in the area-they'll just take reprisals against civilians. Call on the radio for a Mosquito strafing run(or any aircraft in vicinity) if possible.

Take the shot then move. The troops all appear to be separated from their long arms, so their reaction time will be slow. Pinpointing where a single unexpected shot came from is difficult. Don't give them help with the sound or line of fire of a 2d shot.

Taking a leaf out of 'Battle' comics, Clint-like, 'Major Eazy', I'd shoot at one of the Guard's grenades, triggering a massive series of secondary explosions. These would mysteriously only kill or injure the Germans, including the HVT. In the confusion I'd make my escape, in my sports car!

link

Yes why not. The bridge is down by the look of it so they are going to have to swim the river to get at you! :-)
Actually all the vehicles are Panzer Grey so this is '41/42 occupied France. So I'm thinking you are the Marquis or an SOE operative rather than regular soldier. That means you are in civvies. Hide the rifle and escape becomes much easier.

Sometimes the role of a sniper is just to observe and report; however, using a radio transmitter in a location likely to be under enemy surveillance could be suicide, and the shooter is a precious resource.

If there is a viable escape route and the target is that valuable to the enemy, take the shot.

Take the shot. You have at least a chance to get out. And, why else did you cone here, and if you wanted to be a good insurance risk, you took the wrong job.

And yes the first shot is going to echo lke crazy and nobody is really going to be ready to try to locate it. By the time they unclusrter themselves, you should be well on your way out.

owen

Great answer from skippy0001 – thank the gods I have never had to face such a dilemma.

My initial thought was to take the shot but then skippy's post has changed my mind

Depends on what your primary mission is. The interruption/failure of it due to this divergence might be more damaging than the value received from eliminating the target.

I drop a flight of Mosquitoes onto this block. Big bada boom. Precision strike. Then back to base for a bit at the piano and some warm suds.

No if there are SS units in the area-they'll just take reprisals against civilians. Call on the radio for a Mosquito strafing run(or any aircraft in vicinity) if possible.
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on a cynical level, that might be what is wanted in terms of mobilising the population against the Germans.

Plus how many civilians would an airstrike kill?

Wargamer or computer games player answer is likely yes, the victory points will require it and anyway, we are quite detatched from the reality of death.

Real world decision ….. probably not, the nature of the the 'assasination' would no doubt bring severe retribution against the 'innocent' local population. Better to safely vacate and feed the info to the intelligence services.

Good question though because it made me do a lot of thinking before answering.

No, I might hit that giant kid standing in the background.

Cinicnnatus wrote:

Depends on what your primary mission is.

…is the right answer.

"Selection and maintenance of the aim", and all that.

All the best,

John.

I wouldn't trust any French Aristocrat whose family had survived the revolution, or do you mean "MAQUIS"? Not that i'd trust those s either……..

Well, as noted if your mission was to disrupt the enemy – taking out a senior officer will do that; so in that case take the shot and run like the Devil – the troops look a bit relaxed, so by the time they put a reaction team onto your tail you should be long gone

No sleeve eagles so probably not SS troops

Even if your mission was recce, this is still an opportunity worth considering

The airstrike would hit the Perrier roof cache which would put any fires out.

I love the solutions which involve calling an airstike onto the centre of a French town! Why not call in HMS Rodney and a a few undred Lancasters too….

Anyway, it depends what my orders are. Observe and note, then leave him alone. Take him out (him being called 'The Target' is a big clue), then take the shot (just the one, no Hollywood pratting around) and get the hell out of dodge.

Even I could hit him at that range.

Agreed. If he's on a 'target of opportunity' list, that would be open season. One shot, because at less than 100 yards I'm not going to miss.

But if it's not hunting season, well, report back that he's there.

I was thinking the same thing about the feasibility of an airstrike being called in. Maybe in today's world that would be an option but seems a bit too Hollywood for the WW2 era.

In a game, sure. In real life, maybe. But don't run. Walk away like you are perfectly innocent, or point at something in the distance that might draw attention away from you.

Nice terrain, btw. Reminds of the scene in The Great Escape where James Coburn is eating at a sidewalk café like that when the Resistance drives up in a Citroen and blast a table-full of Germans with an MG42.

Had to make a call like that South Armagh once. I didn't shoot.

Take the shot my life is not worth as much as his.

"Depends on what your primary mission is. The interruption/failure of it due to this divergence might be more damaging than the value received from eliminating the target."-Cinninatus

Then why I am running around with a sniper rifle?

2x GBU-31, just to make sure.

Good call Dragon Gunner. Generaly a clunky peice of equipment, and if you are not to use it, really bad choice for a personal weapon.

owen

You guys realize this is WW2? The sniper rifle might just as likely be a Springfield which was the chosen personal weapon of the US Army for many years prior to WW2.

Secondly, even a dedicated sniper might have a more critical mission than just shooting any important guys they run across.

I'm surprised there's any real discussion about this.

Sniper rifles of this era were generally military bolt actions, so not much different than normal kit for most of these guys. It's not like their lugging a Barret around badger22. As for the original question: Can I get a clean shot at this ? I'm probably only going to have one shot, maybe two if my luck account has enough cash in it before a bug out WILL become a necessity. I still might not make it with the second shot option so I'm going and bug out to want to make that first one count. Nail the Nazi and run like Hell.

The big thing I'd be worried about are collateral casualties. Not local civvies mind you but some low end NCO or 2nd Lieutenant wandering into my field of fire at the last second. I want to cap this guy and get out. If I have reason to believe I can do this later under more favorable circumstances, then I shall be patient and wait.

Use a Boys AT rifle. Just this once. You could even leave it, too heavy to run with it.

The aircraft wouldn't be available in the year portrayed, I was wrong.

Mine the road he takes if he leaves the village.

Don't use the radio, it'll attract that real smart SD guy from 'Inglorius' Bastards'.

You shoot the giant kid in the ear, he thinks the baddies did it, then goes all monster rampage on them. ;-)

If the target is not part of my mission, I wouldn't take the shot. Better to get chewed out later for not taking the shot than to get chewed out later for taking the shot and having the target replaced by someone even more competent….

"You guys realize this is WW2?"-Cincinnatus

Yes I do and uncalled for sarcasm on your part.

"The sniper rifle might just as likely be a Springfield which was the chosen personal weapon of the US Army for many years prior to WW2."- Cincinnatus

Once again why equip yourself with a sniper rifle if you are not there to take the shot? If you are OSS working with Marquis for intel gathering why not take binoculars or a telescope?

"Secondly, even a dedicated sniper might have a more critical mission than just shooting any important guys they run across."- Cincinnatus

Take a look at the original post and the briefing nothing implies they have another mission.

"I'm surprised there's any real discussion about this"-Cincinnatus

Nice closing statement you can do better than that…

Well, the US sniper rifle would be different than the standard infantryman's (03 Springfield instead of a Garand), but the Brit, French, and German sniper rifles were good-grouping infantry rifles with a scope mount.

But assuming that the picture is my actual field of view, that's a very short shot, not worth using the scope. Just use the iron sights and squeeze that trigger.

Dragon Gunner – considering your post and badger22, it didn't seem that you guys were paying that much attention. Certainly badger22 calling a (potential) Springfield with a scope a bad choice for a personal weapon made it clear he was thinking of the Barret.

I still find it odd that you seem to be willing to ignore the whole idea that the man in question might have an assigned mission other than kill random Germans that pop up.

My point, and I stand by my statement that I'm surprised there's any debate, is that we need to know why we are there before we can know if this guy is worth possibly blowing our primary mission. What if we are there to kill HITLER????

Before any other consideration, you must consider your assigned mission. That's just too easy of an answer to debate.

No if there are SS units in the area-they'll just take reprisals against civilians.

SS or not, unfortunately it makes no difference in that case. It did not work like this, it was usually more …official. The general commanding the town would have civilians arrested, and probably shot, by some Wehrmacht unit.

Could he not be tempted inside with a flying helmet and some wet celery?

I shall say ziss only once.

"Maybe in today's world that would be an option but seems a bit too Hollywood for the WW2 era."

Well, the CEP for a Stuka was supposedly 25m, so if you called in a whole flight of them you'll only drop a few bombs in the adjoining streets and might actually land one on the front of the café.

@Martin, not sure my WW2 Sniper can transform into a JTAC with the ability to request the enemy's own assets??? Would be nice though ;-)

Now, if I were an SOE sniper I probably have a Delisle carbine…so worrying about myself goes away – with that body twist it will be almost impossible to tell where the shot was made from the wound and there will be less sound than the gurgling of the river and the fizz of the Perrier. That only leaves Cincinatus' excellent question. Why am I there?

Apologies to those who think that I should be worried about the civilians, if HMtK (as opposed to HMtQ as it is at the moment) has decided that I need to deal with this threat then that is exactly what I do.

A question – Would a typical operative like this have the capability to contact his superiors at a random moment like this and get guidance in a timely enough fashion to take advantage of the opportunity?

Hmmmmm. Interesting proposition. A few things would need clarifying such as why am I in occupied France? Am I a local resistance fighter or an allied serviceman? If I'm an allied serviceman then as others have said I must have a specific operational objective and this doesn't appear to be it. If on the other hand the objective is to kill this target then I take the shot. From the diorama it doesn't appear that I would get a better shot, target is in the open with little or no protection from rifle fire on the terrace.

So who are you positing as the Target? Rommel?

depends………on a LOT of things……….Im not there, CO not thre, target aquisiyion instruction not there. this question is in-aswerable (at least to me)

Take one shot … kill the target … move … helps to ensure your Sniper Tm's survival, kills the target, limits return enemy fire that may cause civilain losses …

"Dragon Gunner – considering your post and badger22, it didn't seem that you guys were paying that much attention. Certainly badger22 calling a (potential) Springfield with a scope a bad choice for a personal weapon made it clear he was thinking of the Barret."-Cincinnatus

How arrogant of you…

"I still find it odd that you seem to be willing to ignore the whole idea that the man in question might have an assigned mission other than kill random Germans that pop up."-Cincinatus

When did I say that? What logic did you use to arrive at that conclusion?

"My point, and I stand by my statement that I'm surprised there's any debate, is that we need to know why we are there before we can know if this guy is worth possibly blowing our primary mission. What if we are there to kill HITLER????"-Cincinatus

I can play the what if scenario also. What if the mission is to kill the local Gestapo commander that frequents this particular cafe but today Erwin Rommel shows up a target of opportunity. Forget my original mission, use initiative and eliminate the higher value target. No less valid than your what if about Hitler…

"Before any other consideration, you must consider your assigned mission. That's just too easy of an answer to debate."-Cincinnatus

Of course you consider your mission I never said otherwise so what is your point?

Dragon – I'm not sure why you have a burr up your ass about this but clearly you do.

Maybe I'm the only one who took it that way but you sure seemed to believe that just being there and having a "sniper" rifle was enough information to answer the question as a definite "take the shot" and I think anyone who really thinks about it realizes the question CANNOT BE ANSWERED with just the information given. And that was my point all along.

It's almost a trick question since the situation screams out shoot. The kind of situation an instructor might put you in and see what your answer would be so that he could reinforce a point.

But even though I took it otherwise, I'll accept that you meant to say "Knowing my original mission was either accomplished or less important, I'd take the shot".

Barret my ass, ever use a WWII era scope? And yes I was thinking an )3A3,but there is no way to pop the scope on and off, so you have to use the scope even for a close shot like that, and most of them have a very limited view. And again no, they did not use that mount it high so you can still see under it systme some modern rifles use. I personaly never liked those anyway, not as good eother way, but some like them.

Really like to see you go throufgh a MOUT shoot house with that scoped bolt rifle, see how agile you feel.

owen

Shoot, and blame the guy on the grassy knoll! Or was the shooter a gassy Gnoll? Never can remember.

I guess the question begs the question who is the HVT and who am I? Does sound like a what if scenario by an instructor, designed to test a candidates ability to make and stick to a plan. Usually its a friend with a broken leg, in the mountains with the weather closing in, here it's a take the shot or not, scenario.

Do you have to use a rifle? A crossbow, at that range, has a near flat trajectory, and, to all intents and purposes, is silent (just check the vanes for any damage).

Fair enough Cincinnatus!

More information: Your spotter companion reminds you that the high ranking German officer (The Target) is your primary objective for assassination and your reason for being in the area.

Your Intelligence Brief emphasised that he usually remained within the limits of another town a few miles away, close to the German HQ, except when he travelled with an armed escort. His unanticipated and random appearance at the café opposite the apartment building where you both happen to be (with your sniper-rifle) on an unconnected matter, is a huge surprise to you but now affords you an unexpected opportunity to bring forward your mission. However, this is an unplanned moment for you and your local support network is not yet operational but, should you avoid capture then, contact can be made to assist your escape.

Thanks for your responses, they have been very interesting. Initially, time did not allow me to elaborate on the scenario but, regardless, it has been interesting to read your replies, especially considering that you have only been provided with an insufficient briefing with which to make your decision. It can happen.

For my part, despite being presented with this unexpected opportunity I would not take the shot. My main concern would be that I had not reconnoitred an escape route and also my concern over the high number of German soldiers, whether armed or not, in the vicinity. You know all that ‘failing to plan is planning to fail' stuff.

This has been a bit of fun, so thanks. The main thing is the magnificent diorama of the café scene. Truly exceptional, I hope you agree.

P.S. Does this constitute a game under the Remote Gaming Board rules?

Shoot, your mission is to take him out, doubt you will get a better chance. Plenty of your comrades have risked or been killed in this war, why are you different? Unless you are a vital war winning asset, like Lord Peter Flint (Warlord ref), but that is not made clear.

Somebody really should tell the driver the bridge is out!