"Computer wargames and miniatures...oil and water?" Topic

Back in the day at least one and perhaps two computer wargamig companies were regular vendors at HMGS shows…then they disappeared. I noted this link on the Matrix games website announing that Slitherine will be attending Salute and it got me thinking, again, about how historical minitatures gaming and computer wargaming seem to exist in seperate universes.

link

I have a foot in both camps and I more than recognize that, like others perhaps, I have found myself spending way too much time playing Pacific War and not enough time paining miniatures. In the run up to Cold Wars I publicly hoped that the next beta upgrade for Command Ops would be delayed long enough for me to get my painting done.

It is my feeling that while miniatures gamers know all about computer games, computer gamers tend to come to it as either boardgamers or directly into electronic gaming and know little or nothing about historical miniatures. It may just be they don't care.

So the question is, should HMGS or other organizations running miniatures conventions attempt to get the computer companies (there probably aren't more than two or three) back as vendors…the ancillary question is whether it's worth trying to recruit electronic gamers into miniatures or is it a lost cause for any number of reasons

db

Being another computer war gamer I think it isn't worth the bother. There simply is not enough cross-polination between the two to make it worth the bother.

At least at the HMGS cons there is always a vendor who has the JTS/HPS sims available, but that is more a sideline for them.

I do both, although I started with boardgames and minis way, way before computer games came along. I always wondered the same thing…anecdotally, at least, there doesn't seem to be much crossover--in either direction. For example, why play FOW when you have the superb Combat Mission:Normandy and Combat Mission: Fortress Italy WWII squad level tactical simulations (and their modules), or Check Your 6 when you can play IL2 Sturmovik and its many add-ons and mods? I figure it must come down to the comeraderie of gaming face-to-face with a group, and the love of painting minis. I computer games these titles because they are simply so much superior in immersion to any similar miniature rules or boardgames; on the other hand, I love painting and gaming certain things that as of yet aren't covered by any, or any decent, comp game--Colonials, Old West, FIW/AWI.

My two cents.

I do both as well, and include fantasy and sci fi computer gaming. I have played Day of Defeat competitively (a WWII shooter Half Life mod out way before Medal of Honor and Call of Duty), World of Warcraft (since it came out until last year and did serious raiding), and real time WWII tactical gaming with the Close Combat and Steel Panthers series.

Over this past year I have found the only real PC gaming I do any more is Skyrim. I find myself much more interested in painting and playing. It could just be I don't have the right PC game to hold my interest over miniatures right now. Some of it is that I am lucky to be part of a very active wargaming group.

I've always wondered why I have met more than a few who do both, yet the two worlds never seem to meet.

I know of only one TMPer I regularly talked about PC gaming on here with (we both played Red Orchestra).

I came the 'other' route, was a big computer gamer going back to the Commodore 64 (Red Storm Rising, Apache, Airborne Commando), and only got into miniatures gaming about 3 1/2 years ago. I haven't really played computer games since I started miniature gaming, until last week when I bought Close Combat: Panthers in the Fog. I'd had all the previous games and loved them, and this one's been great as well. But I need to get back to painting…

There's a lot of crossover between the two genres of course, but a big difference for me is somewhat double-edged. Computer gaming (to me) is nothing more than 'wasting time' playing a game, whereas with miniatures I feel like I'm actually accomplishing something (though my wife would strenuously disagree). The flip side of the coin is that sometimes all that painting, basing, terrain making, etc…, gets to feeling like work, and I need a break, so why not play a computer game.

It's possible I have this feeling because I rarely get a miniatures game in any more, and even then, a lot of the time it's solo. I've got a pile of lead on the table that I'm halfway through and I just can't bring myself to finish because it's turned into work…

Jack

Given that you no longer buy boxed computer wargames off the shelf like you used to, I don't see the point of a vendor booth (anyone else remember browsing the game section at Babbage's?). Now, however, computer wargame marketing and sales live almost exclusively online. As far as the arcade and first person shooter stuff you do see in "computer" game stores, no thanks. Keep that away.

Having said that, I'm sure that if Matrix or Slitherine wanted to have a booth at a Con that there would be nothing stopping them. After all, there are game companies at conventions, Columbia and Lost Battalion come to mind. You seem to assume that it's HMGS that is the barrier.

If there was some sort of miniatures oriented software, a virtual tabletop system, as mentioned in another thread, an updated Carnage and Glory type thing that leveraged tablet technology, or a reborn DBA Online (anyone remember that?), those I'd like to see.

By the way, I play FOG online, snd have other strategy games on my system, so like others, I do indulge in the digits.

Best,
Ed M

I play both although I try to minimize the computer time as it cuts into painting. The FOG computer game is decent.

DM

I started off as a computer/console gamer and when I got into a high school I joined a board game club called "simulation club" Every year the simulation club puts on "Ellis-Con" (the school is called Ellis Tech) and there I met a mr Victor Gregoire, a titan in the hobby. I saw my first miniatures game that day, and impressive 12x6 france 1940 game, all in 20mm. I was hooked ever since. As a bonus, I found out Vic lives less than 2 minutes from my house, so we game rather regularly, its been 7 years now. I believe there is a crossover in the two hobbies, as my constant play of strategy based cp games gave me an advantage in thinking over totally new players. I think more cp gamers look at it as "toys" and dont want to be bothered. Where as a lot of miniature hobbyists see cp games as "toys" and dont want to be bothered. I frequently play Company of Heroes (which is funny because I game Disposable Heroes) and steal levels for scenarios all the time!

@Just Jack
I feel you man, getting all my figures painted for HAVOC feels that way

Combat Mission, that was a superb computer war game.

CM is even better now with a new engine and all.

Just bought CM for the Kindle. Lokoing forward to kicking it around this evening. Also play Battle Academy quite a bit on the computer. Both games are very miniature-like. Also play FoG on the computer.

Don't forget that Slitherine is also a wargame company as they developed FoG Ancients, Renaissance and Napoleonic. Matrix Games is in partnership with Slitherine. So, sure! I'd think that a booth at salute would do them some good. I think electronic gamers who play mainly turn based games would be prime candidates for miniatures gaming.

The problem is adumbrated in these post but not named. The tension is between playing the game and painting/modelling.

That's it.

Unless you are going to fold the ENTIRE game into the computer and have it all happen on a vid screen, you still have to do the painting and basing, make the terrain etc.

The simple fact that the difference comes to wether you like to paint and make terrain or not. If you don't computer games are your way. If you do, then computers get in the way, and building terrain and painting gets in the way of the computer game.

The real truth is that I suspect most miniature gamers are craftsman/model builders/ and fiddlers first. They have more in common with Model Railroaders than they do with board gamers.

Strange question coming from db on this thread considering his long and successful linkage with Carnage and Glory.
My answer to the question is a resounding 'No'. Blending the two – computers and minis – has not been in the soaring mode that I think they can be in this hobby….more like an effort to get slightly off the ground, glide a bit, then land, repeat again….. I think the handheld iPads, Androids etc will help to greatly take the trial marriage higher simply due to their portability around the tabletop gaming arena and the programming possibilities with the operation and IOS talents that can be attained.
Toby Barrett Thoroughbred Figures

I don't know why anyone would not do both… miniatures are beautiful and amazing, and nothing can replace toy soldiers… but at the same time, computer games are capable of things our tabletop games simply are not, and in much less time, too!

Go give Scourge of War a try and then try to convince me how computer games aren't worthwhile. Or put me down in front of a beautiful 10mm Napoleonic table and try to tell me why everything should be on a PC.

Both are great; they are just a little different.

Anything that promotes the hobby is all good. For HMGS or any other organization going after Computer Game Manufactures would not do much to promote miniatures but might be of interest to those in already in miniatures. I do not see either at odds with each other. Really depends on what the attraction for the miniature gamer is about the hobby. Otto has put forth the linkage to model railroaders. I would point towards those with an interest in military history.

Most (I am guessing here) Computer gamers are gamers first and formost perhaps with a passing interest in military history and probably less interest in modeling or other craft aspects of the hobby.

My personal experience with computer gaming has left me flat on the subject. Changes in operating systems have resulted in numberous computer games become CD bases for my miniatures and terrain. I will take a look at new computer games but it is not likely I will buy them.

Software to support gaming is an option and one I can see a cross over in. But as some above noted we all remember how short lived DBA online was.

While I would love to see any wargame related vendor at the conventions I do not see where the computer gaming industry has any interest in promoting miniature gaming, historical or otherwise.

VR
James Mattes

Reaching over the line to entice military history buffs proved, at least in MagWeb.com's case, fairly difficult, although we did get a bump when PC Gamer ran a column about us. But it is asking a lot for someone who is used to popping in a CD (or signing onto a multiplayer website) and having everything all ready to go to make a leap to buying unpainted figures, painting, basing, and then absorbing rules that require at least one other person across the table. Can be done, just difficult to do and I suspect requires a more personal one-on-one touch.

Russ