"bored of balrogs..a differnt look is due!!" Topic

hi guys I am a big fan of very large monsters and of course the biggest baddest thing around has to be a balrog..the lotr movies has made them even more popular now but after 20 years of minis every single one I have seen has a sword and doesnt look to be anything like Tolkien described them like..((the smoke and fire aspect..alltho gw did a very nice job on theirs I would have to admit..aside the dragon wings))so I will show you what we have in the works bare in mind this is a wip((work in progress)) by one of our new guys..

I am told he is almost done aside his wings..here in I will elaborate a bit more on our guys look..ok using GW's guys wings for example they look like a dragons..even with membranes..now its my thinking if these guys are smoke and fire those wings are just not anywhere near what they should be..nice dont get me wrong but not correct in my mind..so we decided to do ours with smoke underneath and fire on top licking up..

I will also show you the concept and remake of the head we decided to use..this fellow will be 100mm tall and around 200mm in wing span..and wont scare you to death in price when hes available..ahh..and now whats this a large flaming ax..like I say a sword for 20 years..well you know..but I wanted him still to have the mean barbed whip to jerk poor souls off their feet((whats that Gandalf...nahh thats a shallow hole ;) ))..

also I wanted something that when sit down it would be terribly menacing on the table..something 3-4 times the size of characters is always a oh my god we are in trouble effect..ok guys have a looksee at the 5 added pics see what you think:

link

Mick

Heresy has a few demons that don't look like a Balrog ripoff.

yep they have some nice demons I agree, very differnt I think Andy just has a bit of trouble with the molds on the large one they are mold rippers from what one of my sculptors tell me ..id say pretty much any demon is going to favor((looks wise)) something we have seen in movies that inspired the creation..to me the large one reminds me of the demon from Legend with some more horns with a bit of khorne flavor thrown in for..we draw alot from the D&D type demons so I think we can present something that could be a balor one of the largest types in D&D of course created from Tolkiens balrog..

mick

now demons on the other hand thats a whole new ball of wax..for the time when it was made Grenadier did the best set of demons around((when they could be still called demons before they were edited and called tanari or somesuch))..several blisters and a boxset..all the designs were completely different from one another one of John Dennett's claim to fame among other things..dragons,giants,.also Tom Meier did Ral lord of balrogs another great piece.I even did a painted piece for Reaper a year or so ago you can see on one of their banners that was a balrog oddly enuff..but mainly ever one you see is almost identical..I can see though where companies dont want to fall to far from the tree on designs or the new look may be too alien to people so its alot to consider..we just want to present something in a slightly newer look and not make them covered head to toe in skulls..all cast in a single piece..larger then most around and at a affordable price say $50..and be made all metal.

mick

oh and not have to buy 2 packs of greenstuff on hand to fill the cracks our guy that cuts them up goes back and after sawing the parts and fixes the cracks so you dont have to another peeve we adapted ;)..Im sure most people are familar enuff with conversions now so they know about greenstuff or brownstuff but I know ive had to fix alot of models over the years just because someone got lazy down the process line and it was a big annoyance then as we didnt have greenstuff and still is today even when its ready available.

mick

mick

I'd still like to see a Balrog that wasn't depicted as being a bog-standard demon.

Check here for the case: glyphweb.com/arda

(just look up balrogs, it's got an alphabetical table of contents)

First, Balrogs are not much larger than man-size, if at all.
Second, they don't have wings. Rather, they have some sort of field of shadow or darkness that they cast around them. If you look at the various ranges of Balrog miniatures, it's patently obvious that they've all been conflated with the Christian idea of the Devil, which is itself an attempt to hijack the old Greek/Roman god Pan. The satyr-god represents casual sex and hedonism, two ideas that conflict jarringly with a religion that attempts to control sexuality and pleasure. The idea of Pan must seem monstrous and corrupting to the more repressive Christians, and so he naturally became the physical incarnation of Satan. Take the harmless satyr, increase his size, give him some fangs, more menacing horns, add some bat wings to show that he's a fallen angel, and there ya go. Visit Tolkien to stock up on some nifty weapons and you're set.

After the opening message, I was expecting more of a change than it actually appears to be. Axe vs sword isn't that much of a departure, I think.

I've wondered whether a fire elemental figure would be appropriate. It should be in the shape of a person, not just a bunch of flames with a face.

andy

Man, Tolkien fans can be anal! :-) (talkin' 'bout the Arda site, not about you Chogokin)

True enough, most big fantasy demons, Balrog or otherwise, look like oversized gargoyles, with all the old wings & horns. They're ok, I own a bunch myself, but there might also be room for something else. The question is, what???

Actually the anal tolkien fans of arda have got it wrong...in fact a balrog does have wings, they claim that it is an analogy when tolkien uses the word "wing", but he does so twice on one page alone, and as he is a professor of english we can assume he knows what he's talking about and wouldn't write something that could be deliberately confusing. Second when he saw the lotr cartoon in the 70s he hated the balrog because it roared - in the book it never made a sound - he had no criticism of its appearance, height or wings.

Plus in the two towers when the nazgul flies overhead Gimli remarks he thought it was teh Balrog, so its a logical assumption that the balrog must've been able to fly in order for him to confuse the two. Second in the book the balrog is "manshaped but greater" and as its wings fill the chamber where the fight is we can confidently say that its massive in order to do that.

So in essence classical balrog imagery is pretty accurate

I know this rant is as anal as you can get, but if arda are going to be as anal about tolkien as that they might as well be correct about it.

sorry, should've been metaphor not analogy - before I get had on my use of language

I shall give a last ( from me, anyway ) statement on the subject of Balrog wings. I found another, and even more anal( ! ) dissection of Tolkien's works that goes back to rough drafts of the story and commentary by Christopher Tolkien.

link

However, the subject of the thread is different looks for Balrogs.

I, for one, would like to seem somebody attempt a Balrog that didn't rely on the standard 'giant winged demon' model, and instead sculpted something that really conveyed the majesty and horror of a fallen demigod, a spirit of flame seduced by darkness. Bonus points for including long arms and suggestions of flame, but no wings, scale height under 8', and no horns either. ; )

Ok I admit Im not the wisest on Tolkien but let me see from at least 3 companies I can think of Heritage,GW,Mithril who have or had the lotr lines over the years((have there been any others?)) they all seem to do basically the same posing and depiction of what a balrog looks like..now the Heritage was considerably smaller but still the classic look..the Mithril one was close..being very fire oriented more like a elemental.Grenadier did several over the years as did partha and reaper..and well pretty much everyone does 1 at some point seems..Im not making changes by leaps and bounds but trying to put out something in a slightly new take without going totally the wrong way and alienate the people who like balrogs..the fire being more incorporated into the piece..different weapon..very different wings..((more or less wings but made to look like smoke and fire not just membranes like a dragons wing))I just wanted to see how you guys liked the wip we have so far maybe I have confused everyone ((lol)) im bad for that

mick

Jesus H Wept, I took one look at that second article and my brain almost exploded. It took me five minutes just to skim over it. I think I can safely say that I don't care about the issue enough to bother to read such a ridiculous pseudo-intellectual essay on the evidence for or against a fictional creature having fictional wings in a fictional test. Maybe they have wings, maybe they don't but I can honestly say I now don't care either way.

"Second when he saw the lotr cartoon in the 70s he hated the balrog because it roared - in the book it never made a sound - he had no criticism of its appearance, height or wings."

When did he see it? I thought he died several years before it was made?

The Valaraukar (Balrogs) are described as wielding 'whips'. I have always imagined them as actually two handed capable chained flails with nine spiked flaming rusty iron balls on the ends. And 'demons of terror' should be at least twice as big as regular sized humans in my opinion.

This thread is getting way too intellectual. Whre's BME when you need him?

My favorite Balrog is the one made by GW aeons ago

In the Dawghouse!

Sorry, Mickey-- although your sculpt isn't bad, I see absolutely nothing that is markedly different from any other Balrog that has been produced. And actually molding fire onto a mini is a recipe for disaster. Even the finest sculptors out there do it badly. I'm not sure what you think you have done so differently, but if it makes you happy, go for it.

I like the idea of a modified fire elemental type of figure. I really liked the look of the balrog in the LOTR movie.

Dragontooth miniatures had a very interesting Balrog miniature. The figure was about twice the size of a human figure and quite muscular. It came with an axe and whip made of flames. It had a wreath of flames around its head and a cloak rather than wings. It was one my favorite minatures to paint back in the day.

Chogokin: "Harmless satyr?" Never been out in the woods during rutting season, have you? Those hairy little beggars will **** anything that moves, and quite a few things that don't... :)

Rich

Wow! This sounds like a bunch of Lace Warriors debating the fire rate of a British Battalion using platoon fire, non-platoon fire, and comparing to Dutch and Prussian fire rates and methods.

OUCH!!! My head!

Nazrat,
thanks I agree we havent fallen to far from the tree of designs I would just like some feedback on the wip I didnt want to start a bicker fest about how they should or shouldnt look..Tolkien vs anti-Tolkien its hard pleasing everyone but if we dont ask I guess we dont know thanks man I enjoy reading the comments some are just plain hilarious..yeah my pal BME and Franz arent here..the thread might really get out of hand ;)..I would end up in the dawghouse something on the lines of causing a riot as it were.I agree with alot of whatever one has said theres so many ways one could be done it could be a line of demons..which isnt a half bad idea actually....looking at all the awesome monster manual one designs..the amount of demons and arch demons and fiends etc etc could be very popular..what do you think?

mick

oh I forgot to mention the fire..yes I agree fire is a tricky mistress it seems I know the sculptor had reservations about the making of the wings..and how it would be castable without being a terrible undertaking..hence texture equals torn up molds..I think adding on the extras much like the gw's balrogs fire running down his back would be more of what will happen..all at once cast on is just not doable I know that..the sculptor wanted to do the wings made of souls but we have another type of creature in the planning that looks similar to this so that idea was tossed out..one of the ideas we have considered with this balrog tho would be various heads like gw did with one of their huge giants that had like 8?..hmm..now I think about it..it wouldnt be so hard to do a alternate bottom for him for someone wanting one more like one manifesting itself into form or more like a elemental...this is like I say a wip and we can always alter..again thanks

mick

Alan Saunders is correct. Tolkien died in '73-'74, and the Bakshi movie came out in '78.

ahhh Bakshi that guys joint did some weirdo animation. How many of you guys thought of that folk singing parody of a cartoon when you first heard there was a movie being made?

Oh and by the way SOLDAT! :P

Ooo, a slightly low blow fresh out of the Dawghouse! But amusing nonetheless! 8)=

Hey, Patrick R:

Very cool pic! I think that just became my favourite Balrog figure, too! I'd never seen that one before. Is it safe to assume that one is no longer on the market (argh!), or is such a figure still available? Anyone know?

there is a mid-80s Balrog GW did that is even better, with a really good dynamic pose where it is springing forward. The box came with aragorn, boromir and legolas. Anyone know the one?

I think more Balrog's with axes are the way forward, Im sure in the silmarillion Gothmog used an axe, and he was the original and baddest balrog of them all. If you incorporated a crown of flames for him that would be fantastic, as he was the king of balrogs afterall

sorry, it was gandalf not legolas

Alas, Napoleon III, it's long OOP.

The list of licensed ranges from the earliest is.........
Heritage,Citadel,Grenadier,Mithril,Harlequin{btd},GW

With the exception of Harlequin they all made Balrogs, and my favourite has gotta be the Mithril