"What bothers you the most?" Topic

I've had people check dice but they state their checking their dice and that the role doesn't count before they roll.

They then then state they're about to do their proper roll.

I don't mind that. Everyone has their own superstitions.

Absolutely, but some people do take the

After repeated experiences of people trying this tactic, I ask players not to touch the dice unless they're rolling them 'for real'.

Drunks!

Excellent points, especially oatathome's. I've played with every one of those types!

We have a guy who is always more than willing to help out the new players, but what he does is he will play against them and give them bad advice.
He will tell them things like, "If I were you, I would move that cavalry out into the open."
He will then tear that cavalry apart with his artillery, and tell the new guy, "You see what happened there?, Your cav was out in the open and it was now a target for artillery…..you have to watch out for that."
This guy will then try to explain that he is helping the new guy to learn…….We don't game with this guy much and when we do we watch out for his antics……and he is a rules lawyer who doesn't know the rules!

Cavcrazy sounds like that guy needs to have a shelf installing accident.

I guess I too have seen most of these types. The discussion reminds me of how fortunate I have been to game with the guys I've gamed with over the last 10 years or so. Because for the most part none of these characters appear at my game tables.

My scenarios often include game-specific rules. When I am GM I do a briefing at the beginning of the game that covers the rules (for the un-initiated), the scenario, and a few words on my gaming style. That includes the admonition that I expect gamers to adopt a relaxed style, and that any of us should enjoy the game and search for historical insights regardless of winning or losing. As I tell them, troops often don't do exactly what commanders want them to, so don't be surprised if your game units don't exactly do what you want them to.

One of the steps I take to achieve that is accepting inprecision and soft rules. If questions arise I will seek consensus from the assembled gamers as to what seems reasonable, and if I can not find it I will quickly announce a die role to determine the outcome. (Hmm, could a tank actually traverse that side-slope? Well, there is no rule on that, but you do seem to have a point. Toss a die, 50% chance he runs off his track and gets stuck!)

There is one fellow I've struggled with at local cons in the past few years. He has been in a couple of my games, and often in games I played in but was not GMing. He seems mildly autistic or something. He gets very tense, like every thing he does is a life-or-death issue. He wants so much to play without making any mistakes. I recall one time he spent great effort explaning how a tank was JUST BARELY peaking around the corner of that house and stopping exactly when it spots the first enemy. When we tried to explain to him that micro-armor just doesn't quite work at that level of precision (I'm sorry but you have to expose more than a little of the tank before the commander can see around that corner, and then of course the tank is 1/300, but the terrain is 1/2000), he got all flustered … "Oh, well, of COURSE I don't know what I'm doing. Go ahead. We'll just loose the game because of ME. You guys will all loose because I can't move a tank right."

And then everyone kind of looks at their feet and mumbles, and the poor GM has to figure out how to calm him down and get him back to a positive state of mind.

I don't have anything against the guy, but I just confess I am not happy when I find he will be playing in a game I've signed up for.

I don't think I want to play in a large game with R Mark Davies. Not that there's anything wrong with him, seems like a fine guy, but man it sounds like he attracts some doozies.

I've always felt it was asking for trouble to run a participation game at a convention/event. When people just walk up you have no idea what you're getting. Hence you might get a total newbie who is curious but clueless, or the kind of freak who can only play with strangers because they have no more friends willing to waste their time.

I think it's a very difficult job to set up and run open games and it's a steep learning curve.

I seldom joined in these games, because I was usually guilty of some of the anti-social behaviour listed above and it was a challenge for me to behave during a game and to stick it out long enough to finish the game.

Demogames are better if well presented and they have one or two spare people to explain things to interested people.

It's a great skill to 'teach wargaming' and kudos to those who make the (enormous) effort.

"I've always felt it was asking for trouble to run a participation game at a convention/event. When people just walk up you have no idea what you're getting."

You just need to tailor the game to the event. I very rarely use commercial rules for games at a wargames show, and if I do they are heavily simplified.

As people like to win, players vs umpire(s)/system also works well.

At more selective events I might do something more adventurous.

I love how Ottoathome has names for all the different types of annoying gamers.

I have a number of peeves…not major ones, but peeves nonetheless that get under my skin.

1. Those that treat my models badly. I was in a motor racing game tournament a few years ago and I painted up the metal car miniatures. Two guys would do this thing on their turn where they would pick up their models and while calculating their moves would grind them between their thumb and fingers as they thought. Off would come the varnish halfway through the season and the paint would be chipped by the end of it. Another two would bash the models hard against the board as they took their turns, counting out the spaces one by one. I insisted no one could pick up a model unless they were going to move it and that the move be worked out before picking them up.

2. Guys who offer unsolicited painting and modelling advice. Yes, that might not be the exact shade of Olive Drab as your models but no, I'm not going to re-paint them.

3. Mr. "But on the Battlefront forums, they say this…" Well, we're not playing by the forum rules, we're playing the game as written in the books.

4. Playing against a gamer who always loses isn't bad…as long as they put up a good fight all the way through. They may have a losing streak, but that streak may end any time.

Idontbelieveit,

Well I have had 30+ years of identifying certain characters and how to avoid them. My old club was filled with them in the 80s. For the last 15 of those years, they've tended to get a good, robust ' off' as soon as they're identified (and they're often surprisingly difficult to identify until you start playing a game with them).

However, when you're playing in someone else's game and the wazzocks are friends of the game organiser/GM or if they ARE the game organiser…

Reading back on this thread, I'm curious as to what constitutes a "twunt" and how to spot one.

Speaking of friend of the GM, I was playing an ACW naval game at a convention and one of the players on the other side was this idiot that wouldn't use the turning templates for his ship or even a ruler for that matter. So after being on the receiving end of his antics such as flipping his casemate ironclad 90 degrees in place so that he could shoot or other examples of blatant cheating to his advantage, I complained to the ref. His response was in effect "Oh, that's Joe and he does that. He gets mad if he has to follow the rules so we just let him do it."!!!

Talk about getting mad, I was so angry I had to immediately quit the game or have a stroke… Perhaps the Ref knew that the dude would add his name to the manifesto that he was writing at home or the guy had compromising photos of him – who knows? That was probably the worst convention game ever – although there have been other examples of bizarre Ref behavior…

Ubercommando,

Twunts are related to Bellthronks. Like Wazzocks, but far worse.

To my shame, I sometimes find at the end of a game that I wouldn't have wanted to play that game with me. Usually it's when I know the rules well enough to get into trouble but not well enough to stay out of it.

I guess I am blessed to mostly game with my own children and their friends, so I rarely find the above behavior.

On several occasions I have been on trips and run into FLGS or small cons that welcomed me and allowed me to play with a force on the table. I have most often found them to be gentlemen with only small pecidillos (often it may be rules I am not familiar with so I am learning the specifics of those rules). I therefore try to be on my best behavior and try to be as tactically sound as my 30 years of military experience will allow so as not to be the reason they lose.

I do have to sometimes be very quite and listen to people who are rule smart and history deficient. I have the disadvantage to be an Army Military Historian so I try to chat about but not pull any "I am an authority" BS on history of the conflict or units involved. After all this is a game and therefore it is about having fun.

Gamey rules-lawyers….wife starers don't flourish at our house…my wife generally kicks their ass on the table while they try to patronise her.
People who are experts 'cos they read part of a book once.
People who won't get on with their turn because they are telling you how they re-fitted something to their car or how much they like soccer.
Guys that don't wash often enough…or at all.

How about guys who say they are coming to the game and do not show? You have only spent four hours setting up a game.

This could also be convention games where all the tickets are gone so no one can get in, then don't show. Granted, I let walk ons play at conventions, but I don't get many walk ups at home.

Matthew, that happens to me regularly nowadays. I have almost given up having a regular game night any more, as I was already feeling slightly put-upon since I had to buy and paint all the figures and terrain, set it up, supply the sodas, and GM the dang game, too. My own fault, but it still irked me.

So far nobody has commented about missing the game night so I guess I was right to dump it.

Uhm….

the brother of the GM who argues with the GM (ok I was not so sure who was right I got the idea they were changing rules just to annoy each other…)

the genius player who has a brilliant plan and lose badly and then cries (happened twice), it was a game…

the annoying Dad who tell the kids 'Oh look you can take these miniatures' (once and I got really ed off)

the players that just want to win and start to patronize everyone else (too many times, once I and my cousin had to politely ask a guy to leave because he was insulting the other players). Saw it with supposed younger players (I realized that public record age is not always true) or girls. Really bad way to make our hobby popular.

People that complain about game mechanics (too many… we had a player in our informal game meetings in Bologna that always wanted to redesign games on the spot); good in playtesting but not again. When I realized that I was complaining too much about what was happening in DBM I stopped to play. If I play against a newbie i am trying to help also him/her.

Players that deliberately stall for time (once in a DBM tournament)

Member of the Nazi party (once… snapped when his beloved Jagdtiger bogged in the snow… snapped twice when his beloved super panzer got ripped to pieces by flank shots…"it is impossible my tanks are the best of the world" "if you use them badly they will become scrap heap"… left the game, the other 'german' commander was really happy).

Players that always want to buy your figures and cannot accept a 'no they are not on sale'.

Now it is longtime I am not presenting participation tables at conventions but I moved from player on player games to players vs GM games, they allow me to run the the system. Usually the system like player and will not be unforgiving, in several case I ignored rules to help players. Still I had a couple of problems with very poor play and absurd reactions, in one case two friends were playing against the system, I knew them both so I expected a smooth game; one of them did several idiotic things, like staying in the open in a crossfire… He got his squad hammered, the other friend got his men in cover, he started to cry… some years ago I realized that the victory is not in winning the game but in playing it. Stopped to complain against bad dice and just enjoy the experience.

OTOH: awful facilitators… I often play at the ancient games put by some well known UK group; I realized the two facilitators who help the GM (actually one of them) tend to run the game instead of players. They cannot pull this with me (I am in the credit of said rule system) but it become quite annoying to have someone who has run several play of the scenario before making perfect decision and having the players reduced to just rolling machines. Plus in a couple of cases I think one of the facilitators purposely gave bad advice…

Last thing: CO-GM that create a table so big we cannot go into the center… happened once, then we realized it was not a good idea.

Regards the " Free Day-care" comments: We are getting Older! We NEED the fresh blood! Some of them will become civilised gamers! As far as that status actually exists,…

Rules lawyers and people who cannot control their tempers, i.e. poor sports.

Pardon my americanized English but what is a twunt? I get it is not a good thing but what does it mean?

I think it's an amalgam of two quite rude words for naughty lady parts……

Don't game with drunks.

"Regards the " Free Day-care" comments: We are getting Older! We NEED the fresh blood! "

While I agree with you, I believe the "free day care" comment is referring to parents who leave their kid with you at your game while they go and do something else. In my experience the kid generally has virtually no interest in being there, is far too young to be playing that game, and/or is simply a hyperactive or annoying little kid. In almost all these cases the child is a distraction at best and a game killer at worst. You can't discipline the kid because you aren't the parent and as a responsible adult you can't really just eject them from the game so you are stuck with them. Hence "Day Care".

I would wager we aren't getting ANY new gamers out of these kids. The young ones that give me great hope for the hobby are the ones that are there at the table with their Dad, making memories and sharing in just how fun wargaming can be. Those kids WILL be back. I have a rule on all my con games-- no children without a parent. As a result almost all the kids I have gamed with have been a joy and I have made sure to make their time as fun (and surreptitiously educational 8)= ) as possible.

Jerry

Hmm, maybe this is a really good topic for a separate thread! Thanks for bringing it up, Spontoon.

Grossman mentioned "train watchers" up the thread. This might be mildly interested to non English readers.

Bird watchers ( aka twitchers ) go looking for birds. I think maybe only the English would call girls "birds" but we're talking watching the feathered sort rather than wimmin. There are various varieties of bird watcher apparently. Some who want to see all possible birds they can. My brother is a not-very-serious bird watcher. He travelled a whole 10 miles or so from Lymm to Warrington to see waxwings. But… you can describe any odd bird to him and he'll know what it is. He reckons I've been pretty lucky considering minimal bird searching interest in seeing a tree creeper amongst other rarities. Odd little green bird I saw running up a tree in a bizarre fashion.
I mention these because of the "watchers" bit.

People who are ( perhaps strangely ) interested in trains would be called "train spotters". They hang around stations with little notebooks and note the registration numbers of trains. Talking to one quite probably will lead to them wibbling on in a strange sort of rolling stock tech talk that nobody else seems to understand.

In common English usage, someone particularly keen on a hobby which is not mainstream would be referred to as "an anorak". As in lank greasy hair, cheap clothes and a cheap jacket with a strange look in their eyes.

Wargaming automatically qualifies one as "an anorak". Yes that's right. We're all weirdos. Ask the missus, she knows.
Me?
Yes, I'm a "nice weirdo".

Wargaming automatically qualifies one as "an anorak" if you inflict it on other people (who don't have the faintest interest) at the slightest excuse. I once knew a train watcher who did that – whatever the subject of any given conversation, he could find a way to talk about 1930's 2nd class coaches on the C&O network…zzzzzz

Don't forget the tartan thermos flask of weak lemon drink.

Calling Bird-watchers twitchers, upsets them, to a bird-watcher twitching is an extreme form of the hobby. So, even in anorak-land there are subdivisions of respectability, as I guess the recent historical v's movie-like rules thread showed.

Aeroplane spotters used to be out in force, but now you cannot gain access to open viewing platforms, so easily at airports, they seem to have dwindled a bit. Though gatherings like Farnborough, bring them out in the tens of thousands, complete with 6 tread steps so they miss none of the action!

What's a tread step?

About 30 inches :)

Ah yes.
Even in the saddest corner of any hobby there are those feel they are better or at least different from others.

Human nature I suppose.
"We" are always better than "them".

All of the following points came up in a recent game and almost put me of gaming totally.

1) Weighted dice users.
2) Umpires who clearly haven't read the rules and allow for glaring errors. ( I don't profess to be a rules Nazi as gaming should be fun!)
3) Randomly creating terrain features, like a ford, halfway through a game because the other team stuffed up their strategy.
4) Allowing the above mentioned team extra kill dice because if the umpire doesn't, they will sulk!

From a different game.

5) people who play a game, don't like a scenario and just move their units to the edge of the board so they don't engage because their sulking!

6)Overall Sore losers, who threaten to take the toys homes because the f'ed upped!

Sloppypainter, 27 Feb 2013 3:22 a.m. PST:

"One tip I have may be useful: as with a role-playing game- master, establish (at the beginning of the game) that you will make rulings during the game to settle questions and disputes quickly so the game can proceed. These rulings are final and are not personal. If you present this without sounding like a pompous jerk I think most gamers will accept it. Take charge and be fair.

Oh…rules lawyers are BAD, but it's the foul-mouthed know-it-alls who burn game time by belittling the other gamers for their lack of knowledge of a historic period, uniforms, tactics, etc. that get my blood boiling."

Totally agree with sloppypainter: To forestall the time-eating capacity of a rules lawyer in full fettle, I kept an eggtimer sandglass nearby, and preceded the game with a little speech: "Each of you will be alloted during the game one free session of 'three minutes with G.O.D. (Games Operations Director)'. When the request is made, time will slow to a standstill on the battlefield. A rosy glow will suffuse the air, the sky will split asunder and you will be face-to-face with the almighty ruler of this universe. You will have sands of this glass run out to make your appeal to the Master. The Master will then reflect upon its merits and make a ruling. This ruling is binding on all parties and reflects both the facts and the effect of the unknown and unknowable on this situation. There will be no appeal to this ruling. Only one such request may be made per player per game: too much exposure to the magnificence of the G.O.D. will cause the repeat requester to vanish in a pile of ashes from the rapture, their suddenly leaderless forces demoralized and at a severe disadvantage."

this seems to set a tone of "You've got one chance, don't waste it" as well as "This is my game--fight nice, and love it or leave it."

When everything on the table is parallel to the table edges. Everything is neatly put in 90 degrees angles to the table edges. I dont like it all.

1) Weighted dice users.

Wow! Are there really people who would stoop that low?! I know the RFCM rules have a mixture of high and low throws for success. So people who complain that they can't throw high don't feel cheated!

Lack of hygiene.
If you can't figure out what a bar of soap, some deodorant and a toothbrush is for, you don't need to be at the gamestore/convention.

Never encountered weighted dice, but our club did have a spate of "creative" die rolling by younger members. What was most annoying was their fathers who would look on and say nothing.

And yes, lack of hygiene at conventions!!

1. People who cheat

2. People who "straighten" bayonets, swords and lances on figures that are not their own.

3. People who tell you that "you cannot do that because the 2nd Ruritanian Guard Cavalry Regiment only ever received charges at the halt.". This statement being based on the only occasion that said regiment actually saw action.

4. People who hero-worship one side or other in a particular war, particularly when that side is one of the more ghastly ones in history.

5. People who visit wargames shows dressed as soldiers, fantasy heroes, or scifi characters etc, especially when they are tremendously overweight.

6. People who do not understand that having a shower and changing clothes from time to time is important.

What I find particularly strange about the personal hygiene thing is that someone would employ a person who STINKS.
GW stores here in the UK don't have air con and there's often poor air circulation.
Ones I've been in anyhow.
It's not unusual to find one of the employees reeks.
To the point I head straight back out the store.
These are not one man stores, there's a manager.
Maybe it's very hard to recruit GW minions nowadays.

Wow. An interesting question and even more interesting to read the volume and variety of comments. Perhaps this is why I am a solo gamer?

I wonder what sociologists and or psychologists would make of the "average" group of players at a show/convention or clustered around a table?

I also wonder, to what extent, these rule lawyers, over-competitive types, etc., act the same way in environments outside of the wargaming convention? My guess is that they are just as annoying/irritating/hard to deal with.

I wonder too, if on reading this, some of us might have recognized times when we were less than civil while playing at war?

On a somewhat related point, has anyone had to deal with a fellow gamer who had poor personal grooming (body odor or cheesy fingers from a bag of doritos)? What accommodations – if any – have you made for gamers that are heavily overweight? Our hobby is rather sedentary, is it not?

Thanks again for providing an interesting read and something to think about.

Chris

When you employ someone they usually have just one rather short interview. It's not hard to imagine an applicant who made a point of having a shower or bath the day of the interview. But then only once a week thereafter.

This used to be the default setting for the UK when I was growing up, and twice a week was considered unnecessary while every day excessive.

It's a class thing too. Lower classes tending to wash less, because of a lack of bathrooms and the cost of hot water.

I think the lack of close social contact most wargamers have – especially sexual contact means they can go unwashed for longer with less feedback…

Once hired it is very hard to fire an employee and management in these places is often very poor.

Also – many of these employers of GW stores are on minimum wage and probably live in an overcrowded shared house or bedsit. Having the time and money to wash their clothes might also be a problem.

@ pas de charge

Point 5: Dead on. At my old club there was a rather fat chap who was a weekend Nazi, donning his SS uniform!

Skarper,

'Most' wargamers?! I totally agree that there is a notable minority of oddballs with possibly a higher statistical density than the general population, but the vast majority of wargamers of my experience are entirely normal, social animals who wash and have seen a woman naked at close quarters that isn't their mum.

What Bother's me the most?

Because one business closes I can no longer get Dixon or Essex without being robbed on shipping from England or robbed here by suppliers who only order figures when they have enough orders.

And then there are the crooks who suck money out of their figure business and just disappear when they've ruined it. So long suckers.

Tridelphia, WV used to have stock on hand because he was buying large supplies. He would go to England and make deals every year. His prices were nothing like what the stuff cost's from England. They make you pay between a 30% and 50% premium to ship.

Now Brookhurst carries Peter Pig and Old Glory 15s and 25s are cast here by two companies. And that's it!

I get tired of searching the web and always comming down to such limited choices.

That situation in a nut shell is why I do less and less.

I read what is said on TMP and it always turns out to be figs made in England.

Indeed RMD. I usually use most when I should use many.

I think it's more of a problem with younger wargamers under 25 that don't have much social contact, but I agree it's still a minority.

Children as a problem? I've had my twin sons virtually kidnapped from me at several shows. They are polite, learn rules quickly and really enjoy the history. One has an occasional tendency to try and get away with re-rolling or suing dice he is playing with…so we have a house rule that you must state the score required before you roll and that roll sticks. Both of them have the attention span to last a whole game and have played in a sufficiently narrative style that they prefer the after wargame story than the in wargame gloating.

They are my favourite opponents whether it is serious or fun.

I've experienced many of the others, but the one that catches in my craw was a measuring cheat. Normally I play for fun, but once – just once – I was convinced by a good friend to play in a doubles WH40K tournament. In our turn I couldn't use a wibbly wobbly laser blaster (TM) as it was out of range. the range was eactly the same as the enemy needed to charge in their turn. Guess what, they charged! We won that battle but the feeling it left put me off tournaments and cheating. Not happy to win and not have a beer with them afterwards, happier to loose with a pint of beer in my hand.