"Ancestors in the Civil War" Topic

My father in law is trying to track down his great great grandfather. He was from Eastern NY State

The info we have is he enlisted in 1863. And they believe this is a picture of him.

The insignia on the sleeve seems to have a pick and shovel on it and the #'s 111. it is not clear

Any idea what regiment he would be attached to? Or what the pick and shovel mean?

I figured it would be the NY 111st infantry, but there is no record of anyone by his name in the enlistment for that regiment?

Any help in finding info is appreciated.

Do you have his name?

Patrick Fitzpatrick. I think he was a little Irish :)

You don't have to make fun of his diminutive stature.

Could the 111 be simply 1? The pick and shovel would seem to denote an engineer unit. And guess what, there was a 1st Regiment, New York Engineers with a Patrick Fitzpatrick as a member:

link

I thought that the engineers symbol was a castle? I haven't found anywhere that states pick and shovel denoted engineers. But I thought that's what the pick and shovel meant. Any website to corroborate that idea?

The Patrick Fitzpatrick you found is not the one we were looking for. Our Patrick was born in 1841 and mustered in in 1863 so he would be 22 when he was enrolled. the P.FitzPatrick in the 1st Engineers was 42. . .

So many Patrick Fitzpatricks. . .

I think If I can get a definitive answer on the unit I will have an easier time tracking this guy down. . .

You might be able to get his service record from the archives.

Could that be an 11 and fire equipment? I'm thinking the 11th New York Fire Zouaves. No one is really sure what the later issue uniforms looked like.

I am working on a more zoomed in version of the sleeve insignia.

it is definitely a pick and what looks like a flat shovel (or broom)

Sappers and miners insignia? I do not have my references available.

The National Parks Service maintains a "Soldiers and Sailors Database"

"The Civil War Soldiers and Sailors System (CWSS) is a database containing information about the men who served in the Union and Confederate armies during the Civil War. Other information on the site includes histories of Union and Confederate regiments, links to descriptions of significant battles, and selected lists of prisoner-of-war records and cemetery records, which will be amended over time. The CWSS is a cooperative effort between the National Park Service and several public and private partners whose goal is to increase Americans' understanding of this decisive era in American history by making information about it widely accessible."

link

He could be a Pioneer. I don't recall seeing a Pioneer patch though. I thought the patch had 2 axes crossed.

Don

"I thought that the engineers symbol was a castle?"

Correct…for regular army. But many regiments started out as state militia. They often had their own non-regulation uniform, insignia, etc before (and sometimes after) being mustered into Federal service. Sorry, I don't have any documentation to support it but I still think the insignia denotes an engineer, pioneer, sapper, or some such.

"The Patrick Fitzpatrick you found is not the one we were looking for. Our Patrick was born in 1841 and mustered in in 1863 so he would be 22 when he was enrolled. the P.FitzPatrick in the 1st Engineers was 42. . ."

Oh well…I tried. But where did you find the 1st NY Engineers Fitzpatrick's age? I didn't see it on the NPS site.

Chud,

That helps! I didn't realize that state militia's logos could be different from federal. Is there a site that catalogs local uniforms?

I used the site provided by Duncan

link

which gave me 36 Patrick Fitzpatricks from NY

and then used this site which helped me locate the P. Fitzpatrick of the 1st NY Engineers

link

but after going through all 36 of those regiments. I did not find anyone who matched the info I had for my guy.

I did find Hugh Flanigan, who supposedly signed up with P.Fitzpatrick and his age and location fit some of the story we have of the family (Age and location is right, year of enlistment is stated as 10/1862 but the story we have is 5/63 after Lincoln's Enrollment Act) He ended up in a 1 NY sharpshooter battalion.

Interesting stuff. thanks all for the help.

Here are the rosters for all New York Regiments:

link

If anywhere, he'd be there. If you knew the date of enlistment, the county or town, that might help too. His uniform suggests a Zouave and the patch could simply be a regiment sapper.

The symbol for the engineers was a castle, for the pioneers crossed hatchets, so the shovel and pick is a mystery.

McLaddie,

Hillsdale N.Y. Columbia county?

enlisted May of 1863 I believe. Some discrepancy between the sign-up date and when he was actually enrolled/enlisted.

Could that be the 'absolute value of one'?

Which would make him a member of the First New York Volunteer Mathematicians raised from the Math Squads of all the NY schools in 1862.

meh

of interest, thanks

oops, bad day. sorry

I don't think I can do justice to the feeling of waking up to see 4 new posts and then opening the page up to find someone has posted "meh"

Seriously Blues. There is an entire internet out there. if you find something uninteresting move on!

Happy little trees. That joke was absolutely hilarious. Actually it made no sense at all. Care to elaborate?

Thanks to all who have helped. I feel like I've learned a lot and made some progress is tracking down this guy.

Quadratus,

Sincere apologies. I understood that 'meh' was the correct way of noting a thread without actually posting on it. My clumsy fingers then allowed me to add the second post, which I actually regard as being more polite, and the third post was …well, as mentioned.

No offence meant. Your post is of interest to me. Thanks.

Blues 4

Quadratus,

An interesting puzzle, I have gone to certain lengths to trace Irish forebears myself, with some success, largely due to the publication by Albert Casey known as "O'Kief, Coshe Mang".

I think it might be useful to go over some of the known facts about Mr Fitzpatrick – presumably born in Ireland, a Catholic there would be no civil registration of his birth in the 1840s ( and not until the early 1860s in fact).

Exact ages did not carry the same importance as they do now, there may be a record of christianing, shortly after birth, but if this has survived it may only give surname, Christian name, name of father and name of sponsors (godparents)with the townland where born apparent. My great, great grandfather even had a different first name on christianing to that which he widely used later and in order to establsh the high likelihood of an entry referring to the same, a knowledge of all siblings and those of the same name in the district was required.

Christian names were conferred it seems often in reference to father's father, then mother's father then uncles paternal and maternal in a particular order for the births of sons- a number of say "Patrick Fitzgeralds" in a family, in a distict due to various uncles, cousins, father may lead to the every day adoption of another known name, for example that of then godfather. Patrick may have been known and even enlisted as say Michael, worth bearing in mind.
I suspect you have already checked out the census in the US to cross refer the biographical details and may well have the christianing record from Ireland.

If there are any P Fitzpatricks in a NY zouave regiment it may be worth checking again to see if the age could be out by a year or five, particularly if there is a reference to the enlisted Fitzpatrick as a pioneer/ sapper.This of course assumes the photo is your Patrick Fitzgerald. Good luck!

Pension rolls for Eastern NY show an Agnes Fitzpatrick
(Widow) being given a monthly veteran's widow pension of
$8.00 USD/month beginning in 1868. A possible relation ?

Ed,

Where do you find pension rolls? this could be a great new source to start sifting through.

Our Patrick lived through the Civil War and made it into the 20th century.

Thanks for the help :)

Brian,

I will recommend that book to my Father in Law, but they only have his name and his parents name and possibly being from Cork (the county or the city, no one can say) which makes it like searching for a needle in a haystack.

Is this uniform definitely a zouave? That would definitely narrow down the possibilites right?

Here also is a listing of men draftable, published in a
local paper. This listing is for Hillsdale, NY, Columbia
county.

HILLSDALE.
Cuyler J. Williams,
Ezra Desirodiett,
John G. Shoemaker,
Luther Williams,
Michael Consedine,
Wesley Williams,
Thomas F. Burtiss,
Michael Lacy,
Alonzo Pepoon,
John Flanagan,
Charles J. Palmer,
Isaac Proper,
Evi Champion,
Oscar Haviland,
James Bevins,
Adam Vandeboe,
Richard Ward,
Porter, Knox,
John G. Rowe,
Nelson Snyder,
Ambrose Shaver,
Egbert House
William Coon,
Palins Rudolf,
Alexander Snyder,
Allen T. Foster,
Michael Graves,
Gerome Phillips,
Charles W. Hageman,
John N. Loos,
George N. Shaver,
Benjamin Loring,
Aloni W. Bane,
Lawrence.Corbett,
Norman Washburn,
Melville Ostrom,
David Washburn,
Charles Bull,
Jacob Bice,
Andrew J. Best,
Norman Walcott,
George M. Burtiss,
David C. Baird,
John Wagoner,
Henry Downing.

Additional fifty per cent.
Mortimer Merrills,
Chas. H. Downing,
Norman Pultz,
David W. Stickles,
Patrick Fitzpatrick,
Geo. J. Becker,
Wm. R. Winchel,
Lyman P. Brown,
Thos, J. Gildersleeve,
David H. Tipple,
Albert Atwater,
James Kehrn,
Jno. Rudolph,
Stephen Dyke,
William Kehrn,
Jno. B. Burtis,
Edward Rooney,
John O'Brien,
Levi Williams, Jr.,
Chas Palmer,
Charles H. Lotridge,
John R. Kelly,
David W. Williams.

I haven't edited the listing since there may be other
names which could be cross-indexed in a search for
Patrick Fitzpatrick. This listing is from a Columbia
County newspaper clipping on the NY State Military
Museum's website, mid-1863, so it all fits that the
Fitzpatrick listed is the individual.

Pension rolls – found on the Ancestry.com site, as well
as a couple of US government sites.

More info – in some ACW infantry regiments, men were
selected for specific assignements as Engineers, Pioneers,
Sharpshooters, etc.

In some cases, these men were distinguished by a patch
worn on the uniform, showing their speciality.

The 'Patrick Fitzpatrick' sought may have been one such,
especially since as a draftable man, he may have sought
a regular infantry regiment with such a 'spot' opening
and enlisted to get an assignment of his choice, rather
than as a rifleman.

If that is the case, then he could have enlisted in any
regiment organized in NY in the relevant time-frame.

Here is a link through which you may order the service
records (from NY) of ACW soldiers named 'Patrick
Patrick':

link

BTW, there is a 111 NY Vol Inf, but the Patrick Fitzpatrick
listed is too old to be the one sought.

Great great great.

Ed I have digital images of those newspaper clippings!

Ok. as promised a higher resolution image of the uniform that should help.

The # looks more like a 12? instead of the 111 I originally thought it was.

Also there is a decoration on the shoulder. Not sure what that maybe be if anything. . .

and the back of the picture (showing a stamp)

Even more info! The register where he signed up for the draft.

the document shows Patrick and his Brother John, where and when they signed up. and maybe some other important info that you guys could glean from this.

it also shows their family friend John Flanigan who is a relation of the aforementioned Hugh (that joined the 1st NY sharpshooters Btn.)

It doesn't seem like photo bucket will host these images at a high definition so you can read/see them clearly.

Hosted them on a Gmail site with clearer readability.

link

Quadratus, I believe this is your man:

FITZPATRICK, PATRICK.—Age, 21 years. Enlisted, July 6,
1863, at New York; mustered in as private, Co. A, August 12,
1863, to serve three years; transferred to Co. H, Sixth Artillery,
July 18, 1865.

The entry is from the roster of the 13 NY Volunteer
Artillery (also called the 13th NY Heavy Artillery)

Other info: this man was born in Cavan, Ireland in
1841 and MAY have come to the US in 1854.

Very nice!

Does this mean that the picture of him is not him? Is it an artillery uniform?

Where did you find the additional information about County Cavan and his date of emigration?

I am very grateful for all your help :)

As to the picture I can't say save that it MAY be him,
with a 'specialist' patch as mentioned. The other
symbology on that patch is worthy of further investigation
and discussion, as is the shoulder knot on the uniform.

I'm fairly confident, especially given the evidence of
the stamp on the reverse of the photo, that this is
your ancestor (the post mark gibes).

Once I'd seen the birthplace as Ireland and the birth
year, I could interrogate other sites to find the place-
name. Emigration year – that's a MAYBE and came from
looking at several census sites.,

I found Patrick Fitz Patrick in the NY rosters for the 111th NY. The patch is a pioneers badge, not an engineer's insignia which was a castle.

F I Z P A T R I C K , P A T R I C K . — A g e , 36 years. Enlisted, August
3, 1862, at Lyons, to serve three years; mustered i n as private,
Co. D, August 20, 1862; transferred to Veteran Reserve Corps,
October 19, 1863, f r om which mustered out, J u l y 10, 1865, as
of Co. G-, T h i r d Regiment, at B u r l i n g t o n , V t . ; also borne as
P a t r i c k P. Patrick.

link
Hope this helps.

A Pioneer's badge was crossed hatchets, not a shovel and pick. Miners?

I can't make out the writing on both sides of the crossed pick and shovel. Could that be Co E or H?

Quadratus,
I can't say whether the uniform is defintely a zouave, I don't know much about the American army, but the cut of the jacket, numerous (ball?) buttons, lack of collar and lace twist at the shoulder would be consistent with a zouave.

The book by A Casey may not cover all of Cork, it is a bit of an oddity and a sizeable reference work which I think deals with North Kerry and part of County Cork. It would only be available (in several volumes) in a sizeable library and not for loan.

A good on line resource is Familysearch fomerly IGI (International Genealogical Index) set up by the Church of the Latter day Saints. If you Google IGI, it will be the first entry. If you know the parent's name, you can cross reference and stand a good chance of identifying a christianing for your subject. This may inform your birth date though as I say, later inconsistent records of a birth date are usual in this sort of thing.

Thank you for the correction on the badge.

Yes, the jacket looks rather zouavish to me. Note that there are buttons on both sides, and no button holes that I can see, and there is piping along both sides. Also the headgear looks to be darker than the coat, maybe red?

As for the patch on the upper arm, I'd guess it does not mean he is in an engineer regiment but in the pioneer detachment of an infantry regiment or brigade.

The number looks more like 122 or 123 than 111 to me.

I don't see any signs of a corps patch.

Ed my father in law is very thankful and excited about all the info you have provided. Is there a way you could share the sources that led to the info about P. Fitzpatrick coming from county Cavan? if you could email me at Trajanius@gmail.com so we could discuss this I would be grateful.

Thanks again all,

matt Webster

That patch might be Co. E with NYV below. He is not from any infantry regiment from one hundred.

It is a Zouave-style jacket in cut and the loop on his shoulder is part of decorative piping typical of Zouave jackets. It certainly isn't a frock or sack coat, and isn't cut to close in the front.

I don't know of any Artillery units with Zouave uniforms. Considering how loose a lot of regulations were from state to state, the Pick and Shovel could well be a unique pioneer symbol.

If he signed up in May, was recorded and enlisted in June, according to the rooster, he could well have been mustered in as late as August… Often men had to travel to the mustering site. And entered an existing regiment rather than a new one.

The uniform and patch is a puzzler.

Zouave artillery you say?

link

this site shows that there were some artillery units classified as Zouaves but there is no documentation to back it up. so I won't use it as a source, but maybe this site is more reliable?

link

I am brand new to the details of the American Civil War, I just always assumed there would be books and books detailing all of the regiments and their uniforms. Are those things out there? Or is the uniform we are looking at something that can be wondered at but never proven?

Most stuff is pretty common and well documented however, if some colonel decided in 1862 that 20 men from his regiment were going to wear a special and locally made patch, not so much, especially if the replacement colonel in 1863 decided that the patch wasn't needed. In military patches, you also see regional or manufacturer's variations that provide variety.

so is there a book that will show me the uniforms of the 13 NY artillery?

Not sure. Check Lanham's site (Howardlanham.tripod.com)
which, while it doesn't list individual units, has many
books on a wealth of uniform, weapons, insignia,
accoutrments and other subjects of the ACW.

The cut of the unifrom is very Zouave like, the lack of collar, the roundness of the breast, as well as the number of buttons. The French knot on the shoulder is strange. The hat is classic bummer not a Zouave Kepi.

Three observations:

1.) Just because he's from NY doesn't mean he served with a NY regiment. Many men who were away on business, or just traveling, often joined the first unit they could in order to be a part of that "grand adventure". Uniforms as well as financial inducements also played a part in where they ended up. Sometimes, local units were already filled, so these young men would respond to advertisements recruiting men for regiments in other states.

One place Id' start looking at would be Pennsylvania. There were a number of zouave-clothed or even pseudo-zouave units from the Keystone State. I'd also take a gander at the Irish brigade rosters too, you just never know what might propel a young man to join one unit instead of another.

2.) The image would be from 1863 or thereabouts, and later, due to the presence of the tax stamp on the rvere of the image.

3.) definitely a zouave-style jacket, and with a pioneer's patch on the sleeve. The pioneers were men detailed to that duty in each regiment, etc. They were mustered administratively with their original companies (pay, clothing, etc) but for all intents and purposes were relieved of fatigue and sentry duty, and bivouaced & marched together at the head of the column. Their job was to clear any obstacles in the patch of the unit that might hinder it's movement upon the field such as branches, low growths, etc. They also helped lay-out and prepare hasty works and such work as the unit commander directed.

His cap is a forage, a;so known as an army cap. Despite the quaint use of the term "bummer", it was not a descriptive term for the cap during, or even after the period. It was a term coined by some collectors during the centennial. There was a long thread on the differences between a forage cap and a kepi on TMP last year, complete with images.

What is interesting about THIS cap is that it appears to be made from either oil cloth, painted cloth, or rubber, or has a water-proof cover attached over it. The front reflection is of the patent leather chin strap.

Just some quick observations. I'll hopefully have some more later when I have some extra time.

Here is a TMP thread that lists a number of Zouave regiments. One problem is that many companies within a regiment would sport Zouave uniforms though the regiment was not designated a Zouave regiment.

TMP link

TKindred:
Do you have any sources or pictures of the crossed pick and shovel patch denoting pioneers? All I could find were crossed hatchets.

Could a man sign up and muster in the Army in New York, but be assigned to another state's Regiments?

One thing that is obvious from the document shown is that Patrick Fitzpatrick was drafted as part of the 12th Congressional District of New York. He didn't volunteer. This is also evident because volunteers almost always volunteered to fight in a particular regiment, which Patrick isn't, which makes it harder to determine what unit he served with. I have checked all the NY Zouave regiments I know of and he was not a member of any of them.

Here is what I have found:

New York

Ellsworth Guard
Harewood Zouaves
Lansing Zouaves
45th NYSM, Co ? – Seymour Light Artillery Zouaves
Phoenix Zouaves
2nd NY Infantry, Co. ? (Capt. G.V. Boutelle's Co.) – ? Zouaves
3rd NY Infantry, Co. E – Syracuse Zouaves
5th Ny Inf. – Duryee's Zouaves
5th NY Veteran Volunteers – Duryee's Zouaves
6th NY Inf. – Wilson's Zouaves
7th NY Inf. – Steuben Rangers/ Steuben Rifles / 1st Steuben Regt.
9th NYSM, Co. B – Brooklyn Greys
9th NY Inf. – Hawkin's Zouaves, Lightning Zouaves, Little Zoo-Zoos
10th NYSM, Co. A – Albany Zouave Cadets
10th NY Inf. – National Zouaves (Co. A – Original national Guard Zouaves, Co. C – Volunteer State Zouaves, Co. F – Morgan State Zouaves)
11th NY Inf. – Ellsworth's Fire Zouaves/ 1st Fire Zouaves
12th NYSM – Onondaga County Regiment, Independence Guard, "The Dozen"(Drum Corps were Zouaves, Regt. were chasseurs)
14th Brooklyn / 84th NY Inf. – Brooklyn Chasseurs. (were chasseurs, but their uniforms were based on Ellsworth's US Zouave Cadets)
18th NY Inf., Co. A – Gridley's Zouaves / The Second Zouaves
17th NY Veteran Infantry – "Red-Headed Woodpeckers"
20th NY Regt., Co. G – ? Zouaves
41st NY Inf., Co. ? – DeKalb Zouaves
42nd NY Inf. – ? Zouaves
44th NY Inf. – Ellsworth's Avengers/ People's Ellsworth Regt.
47th NYSV – Imperial Zouaves
51st Regt. NYSM, Co. A – Shepard Rifles
53rd NY Inf. – D'Epineuil's Zouaves
55th NYSM(also 55th NYSM), Co. F – Gardes Lafayette
57th NY Inf., Co. ? – Washington Zouaves
62nd NY Inf. – Anderson's Zouaves
66th NY Inf., Co. B – Empire Zouaves
69th NYSM, Co. K – Irish Zouaves
73rd NY Inf – 2nd Fire Zouaves
74th NY Inf., Co. B – U.S. Zouave Cadets
75th NY Inf., Co. A – ? Zouaves
87th NY Inf., Co. B / 13th Brooklyn, Co. B – Brooklyn Zouaves/Washington Zouaves
119th NY Inf., Co. ? (Capt. Pleissner's Co.) – Union College Zouaves
125th NY Inf., Co. ? – ? (image found of member in zouave jacket, will post soon)
140th NY Inf. – The Second Monroe County Regiment / Rochester Racehorses / Ryan Zouaves (Jan. 1864 onwards)
146th NY Inf. – Garrard's Tigers (June 1863 onwards)
164th NY. Inf. – Corcoran's Irish Zouaves
165th NY Inf. – 2nd Battalion Duryee Zouaves
178th NY Inf. – 2nd Regt. Hawkin's Zouaves

Best Regards,
Bill

The Pioneer patch was crossed hatchets or axes, not a
pick crossed with a shovel. I've been unable to find
any reference to the patch as shown in the photo.

The man may have been, as an artilleryman, detailed
to perform digging operations for the battery, since his
civilian job was 'laborer'. The 'sapper/miner'
designation might have been placed on him as the pioneer
designation was placed upon specific members of an
infantry regiment.