"USN colors in '41-42" Topic

Jake1945 wrote, way way back on 07 Nov 2012

Not much need for 5-S Sea Blue for Guadalcanal--it had been replaced by 5-N Navy Blue in the first months of the war.

Sorry I didn't see it then but I find this interesting. So all the ships in Measure 12 mod were not in Sea Blue? What color were they in then?

All I have, for reference, is United States Navy Camouflage by the Floating Drydock, Painter's Guide to World War Two Naval Camouflage by Clash of Arms, and reference to link

Clash of Arms reference states that Measure 21 and 22 (5-N Navy Blue) was published June 1942.
United States Navy Camouflage also lists Measure 21 and 22 in June 1942.
link lists many destroyers in Measure 12 mod for 1942.
There appears to be a lot of photographic evidence that many destroyers were in Measure 12 mod during the Guadalcanal campaign

As you say, based on photographs, ships were in quite a few different schemes during the Guadalcanal campaign. For example, if I recall correctly, the 6 Allied CAs present at Savo were in at least 3 different schemes.

MH

Regardless of the camouflage measure--Ms.12, Ms.12 Mod. or Ms.21, 5-N had replaced 5-S by the time of the Guadalcanal campaign. Yorktown was still wearing 5-S when lost at Midway, but she was one of the last to do so.

Regardless of the camouflage measure--Ms.12, Ms.12 Mod. or Ms.21, 5-N had replaced 5-S by the time of the Guadalcanal campaign. Yorktown was still wearing 5-S when lost at Midway, but she was one of the last to do so.

Great. I'd love some documentation though

This may not be the best place to ask, but I have been wondering what a good paint is for 5-N on models at 1/3000 and smaller. Is it "blue" or "grey"? The Vallejo equivalent lists the same paint (816 Luftwaffe Uniform) for 5-N and also for RN 507A, which I thought was a fairly dark, but possibly blue-ish, grey. Some photos of US vessels I have seen do look blue, but that may be down to picture quality. Any favourites? Just to complicate things, I mainly have access to Humbrol and Revell paints …

The original 5-N was a purple-blue of low chroma (all the other USN colors of the period were purple-blues of varying chroma intensity). In late 1944/early 1945, due to a shortage of blue pigments, the Navy went to neutral grays of the same tonal range. However, many ships remained in the purple-blues right up to the end of the war.

If you want to mix and match using your favorite paint line rather than ordering one of the accurate lines like our Colourcoats, then I'd suggest you order the following:

link

You can also order them from us:

link

Jake1945, Mr Snyder, do you have any information about when 5-S Sea Blue was discontinued?

Otherwise I will continue to go with

SHIPS-2 January 1941 (The first release of SHIPS-2
SHIPS-2 September 1941 (Revision 1 to the first SHIPS-2)
SHIPS-2 June 1942 (Revision 2 to the first SHIPS-2)

which list, and therefore imply, the use of 5-S well into 1942

FYI, if you paint any small-scale model in the full-scale color (as from one of the above-mentioned paint chips) it will look too dark. You need to lighten at least the dark colors of the range, per the concept of "scale color". The latter is due to the effect of viewing a real-world object in daylight from a distance of many miles away, which is what we do (to scale) on our wargames tables.

There are a quite a few articles on the Internet describing this concept, with varying degrees of success.

MH

dragon6- Acoording to 'Naval Camouflage 1914-1945: A Complete Visual Reference' by Williams the use of 5-S was discontinued June 1942 (with the release of SHIPS-2 June 1942)and was replaced with 5-N. The reason was that the 5-S blue did not match the sea color in the South Pacific. Those ships still wearing 5-S would have continued to do so until repainted after June 1942. Any prior schemes using 5-S would use 5-N instead after June 1942.

Williams is wrong, and that is only one of many errors in the book. June '42 is when the revision to SHIPS-2 officially promulgated the change, but 5-N had begun to replace 5-S in the Pacific Fleet as early as December 1941, and even earlier in the Atlantic Fleet. Lexington was in 5-N when lost at Coral Sea, whereas Yorktown was still wearing Measure 12 with 5-S when lost in June, simply because she had never had time for any yard availability to repaint. Enterprise was in 5-N probably as early as December '41, and certainly by the time of the Doolittle raid in April. And the discontinuance of 5-S had nothing to do with sea color. Admiral King ordered its discontinuance in the Atlantic Fleet in August 1941. It did not offer sufficient contrast with 5-O Ocean Gray and so was ineffective in camouflage measures using those two colors. Also, like all the purple-blues, it faded badly, further reducing its contrast with 5-O.

Jake1945- Williams doesn't mention a date for the replacement of 5-S by 5-N (don't assume, okay?). Only that 5-S was supplanted by 5-N in the June '42 regs. Now, just to ask: What's the documentation for your statement regarding the earlier adoptation? (Not saying its not possible, 5-S could very well have been replaced prior to the June '42 regs. Just that I've never come across any documentation to that effect).

It's in a ton of primary USN documents, as well as in hundreds of photos from the late 1941 – early 1942 period. Have a look here: researcheratlarge.com

I've got copies of all the primary documents Tracy references, plus a 2-Terrabyte hard drive nearly filled with other camouflage documents, design sheets, and photos (WW1 & WW2) copied by Ron Smith at NARA.

Jake1945- Thanks for link. Definite keeper.

Thought some might be interested in this,
Ship Camouflage Instructions, Ships 2, 1942, is a manual for painting of ships from the middle during WW II.
hnsa.org/doc/camo/index.htm

Robert

You can find all the various editions & revisions to SHIPS-2 here: link

I don't doubt that the various specialist paint chips are spot on, but it was HindsTMP's point I was thinking about: I just want something that looks approximately right on a small scale model, bearing in mind the effect of scale, wear, ambient light etc etc. Hence the curiosity about what others had done with small-scale models.