"Starting off WW2 gaming in 1/72 plastic" Topic

Hi everyone,

I am a Napoleonic addict with thousands of 1/72 scale models. After seeing my collection a few friends have decided that they want to build a similar collection but for WW2 (instead of Napoleonic). I don't have enough energy left to start a new historical period myself but I want to help my friends with their endeavour (and wargame with them once they have a decent collection). I can offer them lots of advice about painting and collecting (I have already told them that they should spend a lot of time on the excellent Plastic Soldier Review site) but I don't know that much about WW2 wargaming. That is why I am turning to the incredible collective knowledge of TMP. I was hoping you guys could help with some general advice on the following kinds of topics….

1. Is there a commonly used basing etiquette?
(We want to fight largish land battles involving infantry, artillery, tanks & maybe the odd airstrike, if that helps)

2. Are there any good free rule sets out there?
(I looked on-line but the number of links is a bit daunting. I found & printed off one called Lightning War which looked pretty interesting. Is that a good one?

3. What commercial sets are popular these days?
(We are looking for fast play rules that are not too complicated but provide a realistic wargaming experience that rewards historically accurate tactics)

4. What is your favourite army to collect/paint/game with, and why?

5. Any other nuggets of advice you might have.

Thanks very much for your time, and apologies if a lot of this is quite general (but that is the stage we are currently at!)

TW

Do they want to play skirmish actions say up to a Company per side or larger fights? I Ain't been shot Mum is a good large battle set but is not free. My own set is called Company Commander and is free. It is based on Crossfire style mechanics and can handle up to a Company.
link

Basing for the skirmish sets is a metal washer or wood/plastic base either round or square. If the latter probably 20mm.

I know of Lightning War and its Modern companion. I do not believe they are widely played.

Command Decision III
Crossfire
Battlefront
Field of Battle WWII
Panzer Korps
Flames of War

These sets each have followers although Flames of War is the most widely played.

Hth,

John

1. Not really. Some sets use individual basing and some use multiple. I like individual myself on 3/4" washers. Pennies work as well and are cheaper, but can't be stored or saboted on magnetic sheets to form bigger groupings.

2. I know there are, but I will let others tell you the names and where to find them since I do not know those.

3. There will be as many answers to this as there are posters here. I love Fireball Forward for smaller company level games, and Battlegroup Kursk for the much bigger combined arms actions such as you are talking about. It plays fast, allows you to field almost anything that was used in the war (up to and including ambulances and communications trucks), and absolutely reflects actual tactics of the time.

4. I don't care what army it is as long as it's WW II! I've painted scads of Germans, Soviets, and GIs in 15, 20, and 28mm and I have lots more to go (all in 1/72-76 right now since that is my new scale).

The great thing about WW II is that you DON'T need the thousands of models that you do for Napoleonics. Fore the type of battles you are talking about you probably won't need too many more than a hundred infantry per side with a number of platoons of tanks. Much more and you should drop down to microscale and go with a set like Command Decision where a stand equals a platoon and a tank model equals 3-5. I've tried that size of game and although it was fun it wasn't for me in the long run.

I'm sure the rest of the gang here on TMP will flood you with great info but that's my take! Welcome to the era!

jerry

Battle Group Kursk is good for the reasons Jerry gives above, plenty of info here:

link

And BattleGroup Normandy is released at Salute. I like the fact that if you use doctrine/tactic of the period you are not penalised,

Tally Ho!

What Jerry aka "Nazrat" and Nick have stated. I love Fireball Forward but it is geared more toward 15mm games and 1/72 or 20 mm is the scale/size of choice I have come to believe if one is going to game WW II. Battle Group Kursk and the upcoming Battle Group Normandy will be your best bet based upon what you have described. I will also put a shout out for Disposable Heroes regardless of scale. In terms of figures and which sides the most common are going to be German Wehrmacht and your basic American G.I.s in plastic. But there is a ton of choice out there and others that know more than me will chime in soon.

You can have a platoon a side and have a great game using single figure basing. Or you can just use Flames of War.

Check here for tons of reviews of plastic figs:
link

I use Flames of War in 20mm (1/72) scale since it has a large game world footprint. FOW normally is played in 15mm but I wasn't going to replace out my WWII collection and so far has held up to the larger open design game scenario formats which I use (not point driven or matched play).

WR

I think your description of game size is best suited to a smaller scale.

My main interest is ww2 skirmish and i use a modified version of stargrunt 2 from gzg.
My mods are on my web site but this tablet doesn't like cut and paste.
Something like.
link

link

There are dozens of free rulesets on the above site – have a browse at what rules you might like.

Some of these are supported on Yahoo groups.

If I were in your position, I would look at Rapid Fire! Its not a free set, but they used to do a free download to let you try out the game before you bought the full set.

rapid-fire.uk.com

The nice things are

1) Fun rules

2) easy to learn & play

3) well supported with very affordable supplements covering the campaigns you might wish to fight. Very important if you are learning as you are going along.

4) lots of free downloadable stuff on the web site

5) Yahoo group and Facebook pages

Ive never had a bad game of Rapid Fire!

20mm is definitely the scale to go for. Not only does it have the widest range of models available, it also has some very inexpensive wargame models costing from about £2.50 GBP to about £4.50 GBP a tank. Look at Plastic Soldier Company, Armourfast, Italeri Fast Assembly.

Note that some firms make 1/76 models. MY advice is to stick to 1/72. It WILL look different on the table.

For figures, hard plastics are also worth investigating – Valiant & Plastic Soldier Company are very good value. A box of soldiers will cover a big force.

I base mine on 1p (single figures) and 2p (2 figs) coins.

Hope you enjoy your new period.

There's no standard basing convention except most rules seem to work with individual figures on bases (mostly washers or pennies) with Rapid Fire having 2 to a base and WRG having 4.

As for rules, I don't know any free sets but some members Society of 20th Century Wargamers have them. You could always ask them.

Recommending an established rules set is trickier as it all depends on what you want out of your WW2 games. Personally, I like I Ain't Been Shot Mum or Flames of War because they are geared up to 1/1 figure and vehicle ratio combined arms battles where you can have all kinds of kit. However, if you want infantry battles on a more skirmish scale with little or no armour or vehicles then Crossfire comes highly recommended. Rapid Fire is popular (although I don't like it) but that's got abstracted figure ratios where 2 infantry on 1 stand is a platoon and 1 vehicle is a troop. It will do combined arms and feel like a company battle but it's more operational than that.

One thing's for sure, there is a wealth of information on the web describing how most rules play, along with lots of excellent battle reports. So if you really want to pick the "right" rules set some general research will probably net you what you are looking for. It's been a LONG time since I've bought a set that I didn't already know I would like.

Of course, threads like this to establish a base set of rules to look in to is a really good start!

Oh, since someone mentioned Valiants Miniatures I would suggest staying away from them UNLESS you only use them for your games. Their quality is pretty nice. The issue is they will NOT fit with your 1/72 figs. I/76 scale vehicles would look out of place with Valiant figs on the table. As long as you don't mix units with 1/76 and 1/72 they will work fine on the same tabletop with your 1/72 scale figs. Been doing it for almost 490 years now.

Thanks,

John

Ok, that's 40 years. I'm not quite that old.

My choice would be Battlegroup Kursk and the forth coming Battlegroup Normandy book. Written by 20mm gamers and tested by 20mm gamers ( and some other scales too)

1. Whilst rules do vary subject to the level of combat (platoon, company, battalion etc…) most 20mm figures seem to be on bases of between 1 and 3 figures.

This will allow you to swap between rules without any anguish over basing.

For example I have infantry squads in 3s, LMG teams in 2 and platoon commanders in 1s; my company commanders are in 4s.

Thus I can easily play Crossfire with platoons of infantry squads and commanders, where as I can just as easily do Rapidfire by making companies of 8 figures by a combination of stand types.

Things to consider are casualty removal and the basic firing element.

2. Plenty but I've not used any so can't comment

3. Again loads and more in the pipeline. Depends on the level of units you want to control.

Rapid fire generally has 8 figure companies and to get a good game you'll want a battalion at least plus armour support. Has been accused of being a skirmish game maskerading as a company game, mainly as a company is the lowest level but the rules cater for grenades rather than subsuming them into the effects. That said fun and simple to play.

Crossfire is very much infantry orientated but very good (no rulers and not IGOUGO – initiative based), a 3 figure stand is a squad and you'd want a company at least to get a game. There are armour rules but many have developed their own as the RAW are not ideal. Note though how a Rapidfire company is roughly the same as a Crossfire platoon

BattleGroup Panzer Grenadier (v2) is another good set. similar level to CF but better armour rules. Uses activation (and pips can be used to help) and good rules for armour and aircraft.

Fire & Fury's BattleFront works for 20mm. Never tried it but never heard a bad word for it. Quite specific artillery rules I understand. Some great scenarios here link that can be easily tweaked to suit any rules.

Battle Group Kursk looks good and I think is aimed at large platoon to company level actions. The Normandy book is due soon. I'm hoping you do not need the Kursk book to play Normandy but I fear the worst. Not an issue of course if you plan on playing Russian battles. It does look like 1 book per theatre as opposed to some of the others above that have all the stats in the one book. That's said it may not be an issue for you.

4. All of them ;-) 1944 NW Europe is easy to do but try something more exotic such as early war Pacific? Dutch, Brits, Anzacs, US, Japanese, Indian – loads of fun stuff and not a Tiger tank in sight!

5. Ebay for cheap bits.

Sten-- You do NOT need the Kursk book to use Battlegroup Overlord. The main rules will be released as a low priced mini rule book at the same time, so stop fearing anything bad, please! 8)=

Sten,

here you are:

link

Tally Ho!

Excellent news :-)

Fear abated and I look forward to getting a copy.

Ta.

"Ok, that's 40 years. I'm not quite that old."

I was just about to check out that Leicester car park again….

You too could meet Philippa Langley….. :)

Yes, Battlefront WW2 are by far the best WW2 set on the market – imho of course.

I use Rapid Fire! for simpler play 20mm (as you say, abstract play level but bloody good fun!), I use BFWW2 for 10mm more focused/operational level of play and Spearhead for larger command micro armour games!!!

Dont get me in to Bolt Action 28mm as well,….please!!

IABSM is the way to go. Improper tactics get hammered, proper tactics are interesting to learn and transfer onto the table top nicely and it's cured me of IGOUGOitis.

Take a look at Nuts! from Two Hour Wargames: link

It's quick, simple and rewards real-world tactics.

There are quite a few expansions/supplements also: twohourwargames.com/ww2.html

While Nuts! is a paid product, you can take a look at a similar THW game, Chain Reaction, for free: link

Unless your friends are modelling nuts I'd suggest that they avoid fiddly kits and buy Armourfast or the similar Italeri "2 quick kits in a box" when filling out their armour requirements. They'd save hundreds of hours of sticking fiddly bits of plastic together AND have a more robust model for gaming usage.

Actually if you are in a club you will probasbly be able to find somebody for a bit of pin money will be happy to buld kits for you.After all not every vehicle is covered by the quickbuld kits and for one offs, kits may plug that gap . Kit building can also be an enjoyable hobby in itself. To make them more robust just mount them on bases as you would do with infantry .

There us of couse Maneouver Group for rules. Our terrain is only really for simulators who want lots of terrain at low cost and low storage volume, you can use your own terrain.

Figures its up to you. Paint plastic figs with Tamiya paint and its as good as metal figures for staying on. Armour, there are often offers on pre painted armour which are quite good. Armour fast as has been are excelent wargame models. Italiari do some kits that can be built robust and quick or slow and delicate.

I am big Napoleonic addict myself. Just see my log-in name :-) That being said, I dabble in other historical periods too.

I second that, the Plastic Soldier Review site is excellent.

You mentioned that they want to fight largish land battles involving infantry, artillery, tanks & maybe the odd airstrike, but look into a great game called Bolt Action. Its more for skirmisher actions, but easy to learn and simple and fun to play.

For larger actions, Blitzkrieg Commander would be good. In fact, I switched over from Flames of War to Blitzkrieg Commander.

1. Is there a commonly used basing etiquette?

Depends on the command level of gaming they prefer to do. But even my Flames of War miniatures were based individually. What I did was base my 15mm infantry on small circle bases made from metal. These are custom bases made by a club member, but I'm sure something similar can be found elsewhere. Then what I did was make Flames of War bases with circle indentations, and inside was a small neodymium magnet to hold each figure in place (almost like glue!). When we play skirmish games, I can simple keep them based in groups or pull them to be individuals.

For larger figures, I base them individually on metal circle bases. For 28mm figures, I'm using metal disks that are 20mm in diameter. For 1/72, I'm using metal disk that are 15mm in diameter. I originally had planned to use the metal bases because of the light plastic miniatures. The center of gravity is close to the base, so they don't top over easily, the magnetic properties and neodymium magnets is just an added bonus.

2. Are there any good free rule sets out there?

I couldn't find one I really liked.

3. What commercial sets are popular these days?

Popular? That would be Flames of War, but I would recommend looking into Blitzkrieg Commander as well as maybe some others first.

But as mentioned earlier, also have a look at Bolt Action.

4. What is your favourite army to collect/paint/game with, and why?

I don't have a favorite, but I have built Germans first because I can use them in almost every game I have played in any gaming club. But after that, British, Russian, and then Americans. Funny, I never built a WW2 Japanese army, and I don't know why other than that mostly club members preferred European theater I guess.

Were I starting fresh I'd mount my figures on 3/4" steel washers and use magnets for the bases when needed. Then you have complete flexibility regardless of the rules you end up using. I mounted mine on magnets and got steel bases, but playing with individual figures is a problem: as soon as they get close to each other SNAP! and they're stuck together.

As to rule sets:

The new Battle Group serias (Kursk is out, Normandy to follow) are designed for 20mm. (They are based on Kampgruppe Normandy).

Commmand Decision still has a large base of 20mm players and works well in this scale.

TomT

Old post but here are my thoughts..

1. Basing – largely depends on the rules you are using. It seems for 1/72 most folks base figures individually using either steel washers or pennies. The problem here is if you are doing something with 100 figures per side it is a pain to move each one individually. Some base them in a similar manner to Napoleonics with up to 4 figures on a 2 1/2" (60mm) wide base but these might have an issue getting into buildings and casualties might be an issue. The compromise has been discussed above – base figures individually on steel washers and then make magnetic bases to size and use them if needed – there are many websites for creating cool sabots for individual figures, just google 'how to make a sabot base war game' or similar.

Basing for some common rule sets:
Flames of War = 15mm = 4 per 1.25" x 2" [30mm x 50mm] medium base with 4 infantry per base, 1.25" x 1" [30 x 25mm] small base for command and weapons teams.
Victor = 15mm = 2 or 3 per 1" x 1" base (3 infantry, 2 command or weapons).
Crossfire = 15mm = 3 infantry or 2 heavy weapons per 32mm x 32mm (1.25" square), 1 platoon commander or FO per 5/8" wide x 1.25" deep, 2 company commanders per 1.25" square.
Crossfire = 20mm = 3 infantry or 2 heavy weapons per 40mm (1.5") square, leaders on 30mm (1.25" square) or on round 3/4" base.
Rapid Fire = no official standard but consensus seems to be basing infantry singly or 2 per small square base so even the FoW 15mm basing would work.. Some use 30mm squares for 15mm and 40mm for 20mm with 2 – 4 figures per stand.
IABSM = the designer bases his individually but in squad movement trays, TMP discussion has several options (pipe cleaner, casualty caps, cardboard chits, paper rings, and even different # troops on each base (1-2-3) so you can "make change" when guys die (this seems somewhat interesting a long as you don't get regular troops mixed up with heavy weapons teams or commanders).
Chain of Command = 1:1 – WYSIWYG so individually based might work best but many folks use casualty caps.
Blitzkrieg Commander = 1 figure or stand = 1 squad (or platoon if playing at brigade or division level) so basically however they are based is fine.

1. Is there a commonly used basing etiquette?
Driven by your ruleset or preference.

2. Are there any good free rule sets out there?
No idea.

3. What commercial sets are popular these days?
A look at the WW2 bords should tell you.

4. What is your favourite army to collect/paint/game with, and why?
No favourites as such, chose factions I could pit against one another historically, i.e.

British 8th Army v Italians and/or early DAK.
Japanese Imperial Army v Australians and/or USMC
Need to get Russians, can be configured to fight Japanese in early or late Manchurian theatre.
I used historical OOB and TOE as much as possible with each faction based around an infantry company with the rest from 'One Hour Wargames'. I use 1/144 or 1/200 aircraft where posible as I find the 1/72 models a bit large to cope with on the table, also too detailed for game pieces really.

You are going to struggle with tanks at 20mm. Most games at 20mm where tanks come in already make gross (to me abstractions) by making one tank equal to 3 or 4. This is like having Napoleonic infantry that can go from formed to skirmish without having alternate bases it falls down very rapidly and the terrain becomes massively out of scale with the models and in Normandy for instance the representation causes massive inaccuracies. If there are insufficient field boundaries infantry become useless.

If you want to use 20mm stick to small scale no more than a company. Tanks will feature little as the ranges will be to short for them to risk close exposure to infantry. There are lots of rules that purport to get round this but all I have seen do it be slipping further from credibility.

Tanks really need 1/144 scale or classical 12/10/6mm figures.

Having my own published set it would be inappropriate for me to comment on rules.

There is no problem using 20mm tanks. They work very well in platoon based games if you use a correct ground scale. One tank model covers (roughly the area of a platoon). Most platoon level games (including I might mention Combat Command) have excellent combined arms mechanics and infantry are hardly useless (quite the contrary).

I've played many battles set in Normandy using 20mm models with excellent historical results.

Platoon level designers have long learned to model terrain correctly for this level with again very solid simulation results.

Its generally 1-1 games that must distort ground scale and terrain in order to keep the table to a reasonable size.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame and Glory Games

For me, figuring out what the rules need to do and then buying the figures and kit to go with them is a 180-degree inversion of how I got into wargaming in the first place.

I owned a bunch of Airfix and Matchbox tanks, forts and infantry. Until I was about 12, I was happy to set them up and look at them, while playing back TV war movies sounds off my cassette player. "Priez ecouter d'abord quelques messages personnels" from The Longest Day followed by the sounds of battle.

When this wasn't enough, I wanted to fight actual battles with my stuff. As long as the results look nice, I'm fine with them being 1/72 or whatever. I wanted a reason to hang on to them in the shape of a new activity I could use them for. The idea was not to find a set of rules that made my entire stash surplus to requirements. If the rules don't accommodate what I have to game with, it's the rules that get chucked out and replaced, not the stuff I have to game with.

In the same way that for some people, 20 x 1/76 scale tanks on the table are an unrealistic abstraction too far, for me, invisible crumbs of 1/300 scale metal are another such abstraction. If the stuff is so teeny-tiny you have to base tanks to see them, there's something wrong. Infantry did not fight from pitcher's mounds and tanks did not manoeuvre from one golf tee to the next.

Getting hung up on realism inhibits the playing of games.

4th Cuirasaier,
I could not diasagre more, without realism the game becomes of no interest whatsoever. Each to thier own.

Thomas Thomas you must read different books and look at different pictures. A platoon will have tanks spaced about 60 to 100yds apart and almost never closer than 40 yds. So a 5 tank platoon will likely be over be over 250 yds and in defense probably twice that with alternate positions, a tough call at 28mmm.

if your going to do ww2 skirmish, make sure the rules you use have overwatch or pass thru fire, otherwise theyre very unrealistic

Well said 4th. A sensible dose of realism. It must be us 1/72 fans…

Marc (Hoping you had a nice Christmas and wishing you a merry Christmas)

@ Marc

Must be. If I read a set of wargame rules that said Throw away your 20mm and buy something else, why wouldn't that something else be, say, a set of golf clubs? Either way I'm spending new money on a hobby but at least the golf clubs get you outdoors.

It's always been about gaming with what I've go and then adding what I need.