"Why is there no Wars of the Roses fiction for men?" Topic

Hey guys.

Inspired by the recent discovery of Richard III's remains, I've been looking for a way to ease into the period (about which I know a grand total of two things: there was a Battle of Towton, and a Battle of Bosworth) with some historical fiction … of course, the goal is to eventually move on to military histories and hopefully a couple of games.

But while I was looking for books, I began to notice that most of the books on the period are written by (and, it seems for) women. Sharon Pennman, Philippa Gregory, Sandra Worth, Allison Weir … not a single novel by a guy.

I mean, this was a war. Where are all the guys books on the topic? I want a sense of the military life during the period, a basic overview of the wars before diving into some more military focused books.

Its seems the only thing to be had is historically accurate bodice-ripper yarns.

If anyone can suggest a good way for a wargamer to get his feet wet in this period, I'd appreciate it.

Shakespeare doesn't count? He seems quite manly to me!

"Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York;
And all the clouds that lour'd upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths;
Our bruised arms hung up for monuments;
Our stern alarums changed to merry meetings,
Our dreadful marches to delightful measures.
Grim-visaged war hath smooth'd his wrinkled front;
And now, instead of mounting barded steeds
To fright the souls of fearful adversaries,
He capers nimbly in a lady's chamber
To the lascivious pleasing of a lute"

Bonus in the last lines, a cri de coeur against girly stuff.

I think that just about all WoTR novels are written by women, and some of them are very good. I can think of a few male authors, Robert Farrington's trilogy, starting with "The Killing of Richard III", followed by "Tudor Agent" and "The Traitors of Bosworth".
link
Then there is Julian Rathbone and his "Kings of Albion" link and Jeremy Potter's "Trail of Blood". link
Robert Louis Stevenson's "The Black Arrow".
Terence Morgan "The Shadow Prince" link
Michael Sidney Tyler-Whittle "Richard III, The Last Plantagenet"
link
PC Doherty "The Fate of the Princes" link

Well the op was looking for historical fiction so Shakespeare's "histories" should be ideal.

Who says women can't write books for men, or write solid military historical fiction? What a silly notion, and readily refuted simply by siting authors like Rosemary Sutcliff or Naomi Novik or countless SF authors like Andre Norton, Lois McMasters Bujold, Elizabeth Moon, and R.M. Meluch.

As for the specific subject, don't dismiss Pennman's The Sunne in Splendour, which is far from a bodice-ripper, and deals quite well with the political and military events of Richard's life.

I read Sharon Penman's The Sunne in Splendour and do not remember much bodice-ripping… More an intelligent and realistic novel which is a good entry in this complicated period.

Not fiction, but still essential: The Military Campaigns of the Wars of the Roses by Philip A. Haigh

The fact that Haigh is a wargamer makes this even more a must-have book.

Not saying that they can't … just saying that it seems that they don't.

Sutlcliff … fine. But Novik? Come on … she writes a series about the Napoleonic Wars being fought with f'ing dragons. That's "solid military historical fiction?" Gimme a break.

Not dismissing Pennman's work, but it's 900 pages. Hardly an easy intro to the subject. But it does look like a good book.

Alison Weir's "Lancaster and York" is history, not fiction, and is excellent. Great introduction, very well written.

Another thumbs up for Pennman's 'Sunne in Splendour'.

Her descriptions of Barnet and Tewkesbury were well done.

Another vote for Sunne in Splendour.

Alison Weir…excellent.

Thanks for the tips, fellas.

We Speak no Treason

I never read Penman's "A Sunne in Splendour" but I did try to slog through her books on both King Stephen and Henry II. While I can't say I am a fan, they are also not bodice rippers either, not really romance novels at all.

On this subject, I just ordered Valerie Anand's book on Richard III (IIRC "A Crown of Roses"). I had previously read her book on the Norman Conquest ("The Norman Pretender"), and this was no romance bodice ripper either. With other examples (like Coleen McCollough's Rome series) there are plenty of historical novels that are written by women that are not Harlequin novels, and can have appeal to men.

Damon.

Anyway I thought men were most of the Viper/Harlequin novel writers.

Come on … she writes a series about the Napoleonic Wars being fought with f'ing dragons. That's "solid military historical fiction?"

I meant in the sense that her military structures, tactics, etc., fit the Napoleonic period and are highly evocative and well written. She's not Patrick O'Brian, and yes, the setting is fantasy, but her novels are very much books with strong male appeal, and not bodice-rippers. My point was that women write very well for male readership across a wide range of genres, historical fiction included. And some of them write rings around the men, even in male-dominated genres.

Penman's "The Sunne in Splendour" is IMHO the best historical fiction on the WOTR. What does it matter that she is female? She jolly well knows her history! And no bodice-ripping either. Why does a mere 900 pages put you off?

Such an attitude to women writing historical fiction feels a bit like saying Agatha Christie didn't write good detective novels …

Some of the best boy's (in the 19th and early 20th century sense) literature in Greece was written by a woman, Penelope Delta. She committed suicide when the Germans entered Athens in WWII.

But if you really want a male author than try R.L.Stevenson, the Black Arrow.

This list might help

link

There are 12 male authors listed.

Been awhile since I read The Black Arrow. Need to pull that out again.

Find that my favorite writers of history are usually women. Barbara Tuchman and C.V.Wedgewood to name two that spring to mind. For historical fiction I really enjoyed the Sunne in Splendour. Like Margaret George's work on Henry VIII, Mary Queen of Scots and Cleopatra. Very few are as good as Colleen McCollough on Rome.(And the occassional bodice ripping is good for one's health).

I think everyone missed the point of what I was saying. I just really wanted to read a military history novel about WOTR, and found that a lot of the stuff out there seemed to be about the WOTR from a woman's perspective -- not from a military perspective.

I was simply surprised that there was no Bernard Cornwell-style character or series that approached the period from a purely military perspective.

It was not meant to be a bash on women writers. I don't care who wrote it … just don't really care about the palace intrigue perspective of the WOTR. Though I suppose that's the very essence of that period, so maybe that's unavoidable?

Anyway, there are some great suggestions here from everyone. I appreciate it. Good stuff.

I'm not sure you can really pitch it as a 'military history' novel. Julien Rathbones account of Towton in 'Kings of Albion' is fabulous, but the Wars of the Roses are long and complex and more fundamentally a political and dynastic struggle than a nice neat 'war'.

The death of Richard III marked the transition to the early modern period and the pre-eminence of centralised state power vs the medieval/feudal 'robber barons' type anarchy.

'The Winter King' by Thomas Penn is an interesting study of Henry VIIs imposition of state terror on England (more associated with the era of Cromwell) and the mechanisms by which he bound the aristrocracy to the crown.

For a decent military study of the Wars of the Roses (as in battles, background, forces, outcomes etc) then the relevent chapters in Richard Brooks 'Battlefields of Britain and Ireland' is excellent. It does cover a rather longer period than just the WotrR though.

just don't really care about the palace intrigue perspective of the WOTR. Though I suppose that's the very essence of that period, so maybe that's unavoidable?

It was a series of dynastic wars, so yes, court intrgure is unavoidable – and the reasons why the battles were fought.

"Under the Hog" by Patrick Carleton. Excellent!

Sun of York by Ronald Welch is a children's book but is quite brilliant. However it looks rather expensive on Amazon.

Another vote for Sunne in Splendor but will also say the Conn Iggulden's new trilogy is a decent read. He is nowise the great battle writer that Cornwell is, but tells a good story.

For a Cornwellesque book, might be interested in the new trilogy of books Kingmaker by Toby Clements, travelling with an archer in the Warwick's retinue through Northampton, Towton, Bamburgh and up to Barnet. Fantastic reading

I'm very fond of John M Ford's "The Dragon Waiting" (1983), which culminates in the Battle of Bosworth… but since it involves Byzantines, Mithraists, and vampires, it's perhaps not _strictly_ "historical" fiction…

The Wrath of Kings by Philip Photiou is a good read, i'm
not sure if the Hero of the book doesn't need a good slap.

The Battle of Tewkesbury by W.D Pereira is a surprising good read.

Revenge by David Pilling is not too bad.

And The Sunne in Splendor is a must read, Kingmaker is a good trilogy