"Beijing's Tank Man" Topic

While researching images for Chinese Tanks I found these two variations of the famous "Tank man" who briefly stopped a column of Chinese tanks during the Ti'anamen massacre of 1989

yea, all conveniently forgotten about and swept under the carpet.

Yep.

A gentle reminder to the Chinese apologists out there.

This IS the same government that Murdered a Hundred Million or so people in Living Memory.

Think about it when you read about their actions in the Sea of Japan and the South China Sea.

(sigh this is going to go to Blue Fez or Dawghouse territory, but here goes)

As with all things that transpire in human history the reality is far more complex and is not as black and white as many would like it to be. The young man who challenged the tanks has of course disappeared and is most likely either dead or incarcerated in a dungeon somewhere. I am always saddened that the United States and the rest of the western democratic world does not assert itself more to demand changes in China's policy regarding human rights. Alas there is money to be made and/or borrowed and that is what really dictates foreign policy and almost always has.

That aside China does have legitimate complaints against the West and Japan and if you doubt that then you are deficient in your history. In regards what China has done to its own people it will be up to the people of China to one day stand up and demand an accounting. There are signs that change is coming but it will be on a timetable of the Chinese people's own making.

The recently elected government in Japan does not signal a good sign for resolution regarding islands and the South China Sea. While China has much to answer for to its own people, Japan has historically been reluctant to recognize its own transgressions against China and Asia at large. Under Mr Abe's cabinet expect a lot of saber rattling from Japan and huge denial of past harm.

The West too seems to have forgotten that we have some blame for the way colonialism in China helped shape the current history. So you see there are no good guys or bad guys here per se. Unfortunately the trend appears heading for a showdown that will only deepen the divide instead of seeking a resolution. Alas if Japan and China do decide to have a go at each other America will be dragged into it along with many other nations.

None of those things have anything to do with the PRC murdering at least tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of its own people.

That was a choice made by Mao's government and continued (In a slightly less volumetric form) by it's current government.

The abuses of the colonial era does not make the PRC arrest women who are pregnant with their second child and forcibly abort them and then incarcerate the parents.

(I am not an anti-abortion protester and that's not what I am getting at.)

The failure to call Evil by its name is what gave us Hitler and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot and the Kims, etc, etc, etc.

@whitemanticore – well said.

@whitemanticore AND @onlywarlock

Both well said.

Thank you Taskforce58.

Only Warlock, I have to disagree in part. While the PRC and Mao are responsible for the murder and violation of their people it was the West's and Japan's actions that set the stage for such a monster to come to power and by proxy set in motion the events that have transpired. So no we have not directly caused the suffering of China's people under Mao's Great Leap Forward and what happened since, but we failed to do anything meaningful about it or address our mistakes. I agree with you that we need to call evil by its name. But that is not how the real world works sadly.

My point is still valid that we need to acknowledge our culpability so that our nations can move forward. You cannot unmake the past, but you can admit to it and then open a dialogue. Recent Chinese articles are full of rancor against the West and Japan over pass wrongs. Much of it is inflated propaganda and/or only gives one side of the story but it is there none the less and is driving much of the debate such as it is in China.

Let me put it another way. What about America's own evil? In other words how do you answer for what was done to the Native American tribes and lands? What about the Japanese American internment camps? The medical experiments done on poor and uneducated Black American males in Tuskegee, let alone our history of slavery? How about the treatment of Irish immigrants in the 19th century? Shall I go on? Perhaps none of these things approaches the evil of Mao and other dictators, but were they not evil none the less?

I suppose my main point is, and at the risk of being scriptural, is we need to be careful about casting the first stone. I will be one of the first to say we should stand by our Asian allies when and if China decides it wants to press its current claims militarily. However, as much as the speculation will make for good miniature war games, I am optimistic that cooler heads in China, Japan, and America will prevail. If one takes a look at the larger picture China has more to lose than any other party if she decides to loose the dragon. China's actions towards North Korea would appear to indicate that the PRC do not want war in the region as they attempt to keep Kim on a tight leash.

Erm, where do you stop apologising, and why are some nations seemingly exempt from this self-flagelation? When does apology turn to the logical next-step of reparation? For example, the oft used Native American example misses the point that some of those tribes were themselves guilty of the sins laid at the American pioneers feet.

I'm waiting for a full and frank apology, and substantial monetary compensation, from the Norwegian and French governments for the 1066 invasion. Although admirable and well meaning, your strategy plays into the grievance culture blighting us now. Obama, made a fool of himself, in Cairo, by twisting history as he went on his famous apology tour, end result the Muslim world 'hate' us even more. If we were dealing with mature regimes then perhaps a simple sorry, but most of the countries demanding the West's endless mea culpa's are not, China included.

And a thank you to Anleiher as well.

OK I think some here are reading things into my writing that is not there. First off there is nothing in what I have stated that advocates for reparations. I personally feel the idea is only sound when there is opportunity to redress wrongs to those directly affected and their immediate survivors. Otherwise you do get into a cycle of never being able to say enough. And current law pretty much supports this.

My initial post was brought about because I felt that Only Warlock's statements were overly simplistic given the greater world dynamic. I wanted to clarify the issue that while I agree that what has been done to the Chinese people by her own government is indeed wrong, the current nationalism has far deeper roots that need to be understood.

I don't come to TMP for reasonable discourse.

Although having been gone a year, I hope this is the new normal.

Understand completely, but my point is still valid. You might have not have advocated reparations, but that does not mean aplogising to some regimes will not lead to calls for reparations. The regimes in question, including China, depend on the tension created, by such appeals for redress, to divert attention away from internal concerns.

Every country is driven by nationalism and deep seated roots, although a cadre of elitists wish to try to hide such feelings and educate away such crude emotions it will not die, which is the main reason the Euro experiment is slowly dying.

By the way, calling the mass murder of 90-120 million (depending on which statistical model) of your own citizens 'bad' is a little inadequate.

Bobbitt posited the nation-state evolving into the market state, I always wondered about this convenient relegation of nationalism, though his characterisation of China and Russian as immature states, is perceptive.

You can't argue that acknowledging historical facts as the foundation for international dialogue, is a slippery slope.

Every country is driven by nationalism and deep seated roots, although a cadre of elitists wish to try to hide such feelings and educate away such crude emotions it will not die

That is a heavy dose of Realpolitik there. But even Roosevelt's quote was not simply "Carry a big stick."

" I am always saddened that the United States and the rest of the western democratic world does not assert itself more to demand changes in China's policy regarding human rights"

It's usually the same people who decry our failure to get involved all over the world, who are the same people who moan and whine when we do get involved in places like Iraq or Afghanistan.

As far as China itself, it has too many internal tensions to survive in its current form. Our foreign policy should be based on staying back far enough we don't get burned when they go up in smoke.

Yes it is a slippery slope. The nations you want to aplogise to, or 'acknowledge a historical fact' (lovely diplo-speak there) will not want their populations attention diverted from a carefully crafted narrative of external malfeasance. They need that tension, to survive, rather like the Arab streets perpetual anger at the West and Israel, but curious silence over Syria. The two-minute hate, as Orwell put it, is essential for the totalitarian regime.

I'll once gain ask, where do you stop? Where is the boundary drawn between historical actions, declared acceptable due to legal and societal immaturity, and unacceptable due to transgressions of acceptable international conduct and a developing morality.

As for the Roosevelt quote, you only have the capability to walk softly because it is confered to you by the big stick. Apologising, unless in the vaguest of terms, will be seen by many as the stick shrinking and the footfall having to be heavier to compensate. Roughly where we are today.

" I am always saddened that the United States and the rest of the western democratic world does not assert itself more to demand changes in China's policy regarding human rights"

Why when the West still supports many non-democratic regimes many of which have committed atrocities against their own people e.g. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Algeria, Uzbekistan, drug dealing warlords in Afghanistan etc. Even Libya was supported in recent years right up to the point where it all went up in smoke.

Why when the West iself is slowly abandoning human rights and international law with things such as the Patriot Act (similar laws enacted in other countries), Guantanamo Bay, contracting of torture to places like Egypt and Uzbekistan and things like the Echelon system that monitor all electronic communications on the planet.

Why when the West itself has committed illegal things such as the invasion of Iraq or suberting UN resolutions to it's own needs (e.g. Libya).

And the USA has always supported nasty dictatorships = Suharto, Chang Kai Shek, Pinochet, Diem, Saudi royal family, Hussein (during war with Iran), Shah of Iran, Franco, Argentinian Junta and many, many more.

In some instances such as Chile, the US actually helped destroy democracy.

Milites: Let me gently interject that it is "Speak softly…" and the only point I was trying to attempt was that even the strongest Realists of international relations see an important role for discourse between nations, and if our own discourse is not factually and historically based, it becomes noise, propaganda and cheap talk.

Certainly that may be the majority of what comes from the other side, but when you deal with children you don't act like children.

Hobbes: Here we are trying to convince Milites that we have to inhabit historical reality, and you just want to pile on what a dark place that sometimes is. You treat "the West" as a personified, unified actor, when surely even the US is no such thing. Democracies are ever shifting coalitions of power. Is not the most important thing how we act in the present? Is a past error a license to always fall to our worst. Or is the history of terrible compromises we have made out of fear and self-interest, not a constant reminder of what happens when we are not vigilant in our ideals?

Yeah, sorry, tis speak, not walk, so maybe we're having to raise our voice too much now, the strident tone of the self-doubter?

You don't have to convince me of inhabiting reality, historical or otherwise, I've seen seen it, red in tooth and claw, but thanks for the thought.

Is not the most important thing how we act in the present?

The present is itself corrupted. As stated by myself, the West is currently supporting Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Uzbekistan, drug dealing warlords in Afghanistan etc. The US also has extremely shady dealings with nominally democratic Pakistan which is mainly controlled by the army and Inter Services Intelligence who originally helped creat the Taliban.

Guantanamo Bay is still open, Patriot Acts and similar legislation is in operation. The US is involved in drone warfare, whose victims are often picked on demographic factors and not reliable intelligence.

So why pick on China?

By the way real politik occassionally requires dealings with nasty dictators or shady organisations or doing certain unsavoury things.

I think the picking on China is a result of fear and racism.

I'm waiting for a full and frank apology, and substantial monetary compensation, from the Norwegian and French governments for the 1066 invasion
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I'm (as a chip on the shoulder Taff) waiting for one from the Dutch, Danes and Germans for the uninvited Ango-Saxon invasions of the 7-9th centuries!

A gentle reminder to the Chinese apologists out there.

I think the picking on China is a result of fear and racism.
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as someone in Celtic-Chinese family I have no brief for the Chinese govt – a lot of comment about China though quickly descends into anti Chinese, not anti Chinese govt, comments.

Btw not saying that necessarily the case here – but one only has to look on news sites comment pages to see the type of unthinking racism pumped out whenever China gets mentioned (and of course many Chinese are also similarly racist too)

Forget the Anglo-Saxons, what about Romans? The Italians should be squeezed, until the pips squeak!

To be honest, the race card has been played so many times, to defend increasingly untenable positions, it's lost most of its impact. Most racism is a combination of fear, cultural comfort zones and ignorance, it's not a mental disease that affects only one part of the political spectrum.

I don't think using news site comment pages, to draw wider conclusions, about Western attitudes to China, really holds much water. Look at any news comment page and you'd come to the conclusion the Barbarians were at the gate, albeit ones who can just about type. Ooops, bit of racism their, using the term barbarian.

I don't think using news site comment pages, to draw wider conclusions, about Western attitudes to China, really holds much water.
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I'd agree overall in truth – its one reason why in general I have given up commenting on such sites as petty racists etc as well as agitprop merchants of left and right are not, like conspiracy theorists, the type of people to suddenly say, "yes you're right, I've just wasted the past 10 years of my life on ACAB, the French, the Chinese, the EU, Islam, trying to show the world is run by shape changing lizards' etc – hopefully most of those commenting are not in a position to do anything about their views and are just ranters.