"Teutonic Sergeants" Topic

a new scheme for a unit of teutonic sergeants, what do you think about?

looks good.

I went for something closer to grey myself, but the idea of a dirty once-white looks very good.

and it will make the brethern stand out even more.

They look splendid.

Did you use dip?

Sorry they do look good :-)

Lovely figures and superb painting.

I'm not sure about the "T" though. As I understand it the symbol of the Teutonic Order was a black cross on a white background?

I believe that only full bretheren were allowed to have a cross.

lay members and sergeants were only given a T

similarly, my )old) info, was that only full and lay bretheren wore white, and sergents etc wore grey. which is why this once-white looks rather good as an alternative to grey without being white

(FWIW, I had pavaises for my crossbowmen, and those cam eup well by painting them white with the central bar inblack, rather than attempting a cross of a t.)

The parti-colored surcoats are surely artistic licence, but I like them. Yes Teutonic Order non noble troops wore grey and displayed the "tau" cross. Possibly "hand me downs" of once-white surcoats that had become dingy? Why throw out a perfectly sound piece of clothing just because it isn't white anymore? So incorporate that into the uniform regulations and save money at the same time. Just speculation….

Very nicely done. IIRC the "Tau" cross was just a T across the shield.

It looks nice and follows the popular osprey image, but is historically wrong. The Tau-Cross was the sign of the Halfbrethren, but these didnt actually fight and had a white coat. The Sejant brethren fought and wore grey tunics but with a full cross like the brethren….

"It looks nice and follows the popular osprey image, but is historically wrong. The Tau-Cross was the sign of the Halfbrethren, but these didnt actually fight and had a white coat. The Sejant brethren fought and wore grey tunics but with a full cross like the brethren…."

Source?

Common knowledge of german historians ;), I think you can read it in: Rolf Fuhrmann Der Deutschorden. In this book the myth about the horse barding of teutonic knights is destroyed…

You have done a really nice job on those figures.

Raglan

It is also mentioned in Von Akkon zur Marienburg; Klaus Militzer.

myth of horse barding?

"…erwähnt im Bestand der Komtureien keinerlei Pferdewappnung oder Roßdecken im Sinne von Kuvertüren…"
[Der Deutschorden, R.Fuhrmann,S.28 re.Spalte Mitte]
I don't think I can translate it exactly, but it means the Teutonic Knights did not use horse barding or even the often seen horse coats….

I doubt I have enough German to even order a beer at octoberfest, so I will not even try.

But does the article make a blanket statement (eh hem) or is it referring to a specific period within the Baltic crusades only?

given the winter campaigning expecially, it just seems illogical to not offer some protection to the horse from the elements, not to mention the morale value that would accrue and the importance of heraldic symbolism at the time.

Mmmh, it seems quite general, I try to translate the sentence to make it clear."(It) mentions in the arsenals of the komturs absolutely no horsebarding or horse blankets in the sense of Kuvertüren (medieval horse blankets covering also the neck and head of the animal)"

is that an absence of evidence, or evidence of an absence, would you say?

It's an evidence of absence because the warrior monks got all their armanents and clothes from the arsenal and if it did not list them at all, their had not been any.

I'm indeed not sure about the issue on the use of horse barding by Military Orders. As a matter of fact we have a clear indication of the horse barding use by Templars (see the image, from the San Bevignate Templar church, in Perugia). It is a templar Church, so we can expect the painter could get indication on this subject

The fresco also shows the Baussant. Since Templars and Teutonic followed a similar rule, we could expect a similar attitude towards the use of caparisons (indeed on the left we see a knight with BLACK crosses….. at least one researcher identify him as a Teutonic)

Just an additional short comment: the same fresco also seems to support the idea that Military Orders used crests for their helms. In another fragment, a knight with a black cross on his great helm is killing an enemy; on the top of his helm, barely visible, you can find a red small crest (a horse, perhaps)…..

I hope these few notes can be useful!

I have recently put a similar post on the FANATICUS website, I have Rolf Furhmann's book, as well as another in the series that he co-authored about the battle of Tannenberg 1410. See my post: 'mounted Teutonic Knights, buyer beware'.

The Teutonic Order never sat on its arses amassing money like the Templars, it undertook campaigns in eastern Europe fairly regularly and all equipment belonged to the Order; they would not waste money on caparisons, Roßdecken – literally 'charger blankets / coverings', as this also contradicted the idea that the order practiced poverty and chastity. Pferdewappung would translate as horse heraldry – das Wappen = coat of arms.

I have also spoken to museum staff at the Marlbork (formerly Marienburg) fortress in Poland; they agreed that horse caparisons would not have been worn. This was not just due to parsimony in a poor Order that eschewed individualism; in the winter a wet, or freezing, caparison did nothing to keep the horse warm and as the Order only allowed 'guest Crusaders' to display their personal arms (the Hochmeister sometimes quartered his own arms with those of the Order), there was no reason to shell out money for an unnecessary item. Fuhrmann also states that perhaps the Hochmeister rode a caparisoned horse at ceremonial occasions, but even this is not certain.

I have contacted most figure manufacturers in Europe on this point, but have been met with mostly electronic shrugs. Luckily Donnington Miniatures' latest Teutonic knight in 15mm seems to have benefited from my advice.

Although I was born, grew up and was educated mostly in the UK I had an ethnic German mother who taught me German before I learned English.

The text quoted translates as "[the official office book] mentions in the Grand Master's stock no sort of / not any horse heraldry or horse coverings (Roß = charger / destrier) with respect to caparisons".

A more useful bit is mentioned earlier in the text, "Eine Pferdepanzerung oder die Kuvertüre, die fast Bodenlange Pferde-Überlegedecke wurden von den Ritterbrüdern nicht verwendet". This translates as "a horse armour or a caparison, [i.e.] the almost ground-long horse overlay-covering (destrier skirt, caparison) was not used by the brother knights". The text goes on to say that the records show that the Hochmeister paid for small saddle-blankets (record for 1408). It is thought that this sort of horse covering would have been worn by the Hochmeister during celebratory occasions; i.e. to identify and symbolise the Order for the benefit of high-ranking Crusaders arriving at the Königsberg court.

Oh, by the way, Oktoberfest is the correct spelling!

Best wishes

Charles

So it looks like the Sergeants should wear gray tunics with the standard white shield with black cross of the order?

Now, if we can only convince the army list writers and the figure designers that the 13th century Lithuanians (my kin) were not a race of light horse archers.

Apart from raiding parties and some scouts most Lithuanians
seem to have fought on foot throughout most of the 13th century.

I believe that later armies had more mounted troops with better armor and horses as time went on.

Is there enough interest to start a new topic?

v/r

Joe

…..mhhh…. an interesting discussion, but, as a matter of fact, I think nobody will ever be able to prove the Teutonics use horse barding or not. For the simple reason that we lack sources; or, at least, we have some sources that show the caparisons in use (the fresco I mentioned, which is contemporary), and some later written sources that do not mention caparison. Indeed I can agree that the warrior monks did not use caparisons in battle as late as 1408….. I doubt it was in use in Italy, in those years, as far I can understand. But 1250-1280 is another matter, indeed….. The extreme temperatures could be a point, but you can find Swedish knights dressed as the Manesse Codex German counterparts, barding included. An the poverty is not an issue; each monk had to live in poverty, but the order was not poor by any means (it was able to hire a substantial number of mercenearies in the 13 years war, after the crusading spirit declined… and we have a Teutonic state, which means power and finances). Last but not least, horse barding, as shown in the fresco, did not bear the knight heraldry, but that of the Order (for the glory of God!)…..
so, in conclusion, I would like to say: enjoy your miniatures, and if you like, use caparisoned or unbarded horses!
cheers
stefano

Sorry, but no. In heraldic jargon the arms of the knight on the left in the mural are sable, on a chief argent a cross paty of the first. This cannot be a Teutonic knight, since the cross mostly used was a simple straight black cross on a white field, as used by the fighting Bishops of Cologne and the subsidiary Fulda Abbey.

The cross pay is certainly known to have been used on the Order's seals, but the entire shield design ('device')is not that of the Teutonic Order. The paty cross was of course used by the Templars, but in red.

As for the other knight bearing argent, a cross sable, this need not necessarily be a Teutonic knight as there was no international copyright on a coat of arms, and in German heraldry at least the fragmented nature of the Holy Roman Empire led to the same coat of arms being used by a number of families in different areas; there is plenty of evidence of this – just consult Siebmacher's books. We also need to consider artistic licence. Many medieval pictures are not necessarily that accurate and figures are sometimes drawn in mirror image so that the shield device is visible.

The records of the Order were meticulously kept; if there is no mention of caparisons (which would have been a considerable (unnecessary) expense), then it is because they were not acquired and paid for. As for crests on helmets, this and the portrayal of horned helmets and the like comes from the imagination of Eisenstein and a few recent model manufacturers.

I will see if I can find names for these coats-of-arms.

dear friend, as you prefer….just a suggestion: be careful to be sharp and dogmatic on matters regarding uniforms in middle age. I wonder if the concept of heraldry was so clearly defined and rigid in those years: we have many examples of different crosses in the habit of warrior monks of the same order (one is in the fresco: the templar has a paty cross on the shield, and a latin one on the caparison). Just go to the site link
to see much later prints with examples of "latin" and "patee" (paty) crosses in the same Teutonic order (and this in an age whe heraldry was much more rigid). In the same site you find also paty crosses in coins/seals. Again, the famous depiction in the Manesse codex has again the same kind of cross ("considered pattée by Rudolf Koch in Book of Signs….."). You cannot reject the evidences that do not support your view and maintain those that agree with your idea…..The rule just says "a black cross". These are the facts: you have a fresco, two knights, one is a templar, the other resemble a templar, but with a black cross; the cross is paty…. So, a researcher (Dr. G. Curzi) who wrote a book on the subject, says he is a Teutonic, you say not, I simply say: he could be. As for artistic license, the same could be said of the Traian Column, before samples of the lorica segmentata were found by archeologists….. Finally, I never said they had horned helms (albeit the guy on the Manesse code has one; many knights in that Code have crests similar to those of the current miniatures….. the Codex is indeed the source for these models); I only wrote there is in the fresco an example of a knight with a latin black cross on the helm with a crest…..
The rest (mine and yours) are welcomed opinions

Dear Wisehowl, Yes I agree about the dangers of being dogmatic, and I am sorry if my forceful views have irritated anyone.
To be fair, there is another drawing of a knight bearing these arms, who is either a Teutonic knight or the Abbot of Fulda riding a caparisoned horse – this appears in the illustrated chronicle of Kaiser Heinrich's trip to Rome, 1308-1313, and can be found in Franz-Josef Heyen (Ed), Kaiser Heinrichs Romfahrt: Die Bilderchronik von Kaiser Heinrich VII und Kurfürst Balduin von Luxemburg, 1308-1313, Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, Munich, 1978. ISBN 3-423-01358-3, page 71, drawing 10 a. The editor states that the Abbot of Fulda certainly accompanied the Kaiser, and that some Teutonic knights did take part, in particular the Landkomtur (Grand Commander)of Franken (Franconia), Konrad von Gundolfingen. Konrad did distinguish himself in battle, so the drawing is probably meant to depict him slaying the Kaiser's enemies. The Archbishop of Cologne did not take part.
My view is that the picture either depicts the Abbot (there is only one figure shown), or that it represents the Commander who, for whatever reason, made an exception to the norm. Or, it is again artistic licence. The editor points to a number of historical inaccuracies in the drawings, and we must remember that the chronicle was prepared decades after the events.
No, you didn't mention horns and crests. I brought this up because model manufacturers will put these onto their products, and I lump all these 'frills' together.
In my view, the evidence against caparisons is stronger than it is for – but that is my view and I accept that not everyone will agree.
Best wishes, Charles

No offence, indeed! rather the discussion was intriguing…. as a matter of fact my opinion is that we have a notable lack of evidence for any views, in particular for the XIII century, when the order actively operated in Holy Land. Crests are shown on ceremonial shields of the XIV cent., illustrating the Great Master arms (Metropolitan Museum Journal,Vol. 24, (1989), pp. 35-46): can we generalise saying that every knight was always allowed to bear it? Probably not, albeit there are some pictorial evidences for the contrary (the fresco, but we are not sure the knight is a Teutonic, the Manesse code guy….). As for caparison, my opinion is that we do not have any proof that its use was forbidden, as long as it beared only the arms of Religion, i.e. the order…. at least in XIII and early XIV centuries. Later we do not find traces of its use, and this sound reasonable. I have a final question for you, I'm curious and I do not have access to most of the publications you quote: did the records, The Treasurer's book, mention horse armour?

Dear Wisegowl, firstly the drawing of the knights fighting in Italy, including one wearing argent, a cross sable is also reproduced in Timothy Newark, Medieval Warfare: An Illustrated Introduction, Jupiter Books (London) Limited, London, 1979, ISBN 0 906379 05 9, facing page 113. The caption says nothing of use to us, merely that the drawing is from the Codex Balduineus of the 14th century [i.e. the chronicle commissioned about Heinrich's Roman adventure].

To answer your question, Fuhrmann's book on the Teutonic Order is very detailed on a number of things – e.g. steel horse shoes were fitted in winter, iron ones in summer. He says that various seals of the Hochmeistern (plural) and commanders show knights riding with flags and helm decorations, but no caparisons. Yet the artwork in Fuhrmann's book shows no such helmet decorations!

Then he goes on to say (after the bit about the purchase of the Hochmeister's grey cloth for saddle blankets), that in the records for 1400 the deeds for the lending out of landed property (.e. possessions) demanded that the landowners who were obliged to give 'war horse service' (rossdienstpflicht) had to do service with an armoured horse. However, he continues, there is doubt that the men could afford such a costly item, and that a blanket of sack-cloth (cripptuch in medieval German) served to protect the horse while it was kept out for long periods in the meadows during cold weather, or while travelling.

Please note I made an error in previous posts – the word 'Pferdewappnung' actually means horse arming, an ambiguous phrase that I think is meant to mean horse armour, even though Wappen does mean coats of arms, and arming in the sense of weapons would be 'bewaffnen'. Sorry.

Regards

Charles

many thanks for the information. I had a look on the Balduineus Codex, and I agree, you are right, probably that knight was intended to represent the Abbot of Fulda or one of the 7 electors, the Bishop of Koln… Another suggestion for painting miniatures with caparisoned horses could be
link
(representing Saint George?) which seemingly reports a Teutonic-like knight….
Bye
Stefano

Dear Stefano, Both books by Fuhrmann give the coats of arms of a number of western knights who went on 'crusade' with the Teutonic knights at various times. I will put these onto the Fanaticus website forum in the next week or so.

Regards

Charles / Carlo

Great, thank you!