"Defiance Games thinking of doing a Kickstarter..." Topic

I would say CMON KS are more of a preorder system than Mantic's. Mantic's Kickstarters have been used to fund and accelerate releases that were certainly planned but not guaranteed. For instance, the Kings of War Kickstarter funded over three years worth of releases they had planned, which will all be done and on their way to backers in June. None of those KoW releases were anything beyond some scribbly concept art, now they are fully realized models (in some cases some very beautiful models sculpted by Remy Tremblay).

Kickstarter ends tomorrow, nearly $40,000 USD raised so far.

Here in Boston, where Defiance are based, it's very easy to pick up their stuff. The original marines are really nice, but if you follow their blog and on Facebook, they've talked about some of the issues they've had getting things out with their new in-house manufacture. I picked up a box of Germans, and the material was quite greasy, and the scale was off.

Their most recent releases are Chinese models, sculpted by Bob Naismith and some scenery products, produced by another company. The Chinese look decent, especially compared to the Germans.

I'm in for $65 USD…

I said it a month ago, I'll say it again.

Not with a barge pole.

The new management is acutely aware that many folk have that same "Not with a barge pole" feeling – often with good reason! So their first objective is to get this delivery right. Everything else will depend on their doing that.

The hints here and there make this change seem like a detective flick, where last time it was a disaster movie.

Beasts of War have just shown some concept art that was "recently gifted" to Antenocitis Workshop that looked slightly… defiant? Maybe just the same artist, but otherwise unrelated? Can this be confirmed or denied?

I know the Komodo suit from Antenociti and the suit from Defiance were designed by the same artist, just as the german mech from Defiance and the (awesome) Fiddler mech from White Dragon Miniatures also share the same designer. I think the guy behind the future trooper drawings is also repsonsible for the dropship concepts.

I would like to warn people that I have had an extremely unpleasant dealing with the new management. Be very careful about these guys. I am owed a lot of money and I have been informed that the new management will not pay debts owed by Tony. I have a very strong reason to believe the management shift was a shell game to make the kick starter look better. Can't prove it, but have a very strong feeling about it.

This company has been the worst dealings I have had in my limited time as a part time, one man plastic company. I will NEVER work with them again.

They had planned for me to make the plastic mech in the kick starter with out ever even talking to me about it. I found out I was the supplier after reading the kick starter and asking who was making it. I told them I would not be making anything for a company that owed me thousands of dollars and was making no attempt to pay. After I was paid for previous product I would be willing to look at the files and see what could be done. Well, they got a pile of money from kick starter and found someone else to make the mech. And they told me weeks ago they would be returning product, but they have not. This is NOT ok with me, but I have no choice. I would not have made the items if they had not ordered them. Still they have the items in their store, I have no money, and they are setting on almost $50,000 USD in kick starter money.

I am very sorry if this seems to be a bad business move to spread bad news about another company, but I am angry beyond the capacity for rational thought.

Be very careful dealing with them.

Can you not take legal action? I assume you have some kind of paperwork, emails, invoices etc from the company to prove your case in court. A change in management wouldn't make the company any less liable for it's actions. I don't know about the US, but in the UK they wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court. It would certainly be worth your time to seek advice from a solicitor.

Chin up, all is not lost, last time Tony tried to pull this stunt the creditor ended up owning the company

I'm sorry to hear about them screwing you over. You should consider a collection agency or filing a lean.

Not that I needed another excuse to put Defiance at the top of my trashy people list, but they're even more firmly entrenched there now.

I hope you're able to find some sort of favorable resolution and get paid for the product you supplied.

I'm sorry to hear about that Ken.
You've always been very good in your customer service with myself and others and it's pretty crappy that they're taking advantage of you this way. Best of luck finding a solution without getting buried under legal bills.

I think you should consider posting a topic about this in on the "Industry" and/or "Customer Service" boards. The community is generally aware of DG's poor customer service and products, but this sort of thing is a whole new low that folks deserve to know about. Of course if you don't want to publicize it further in hopes of getting a resolution that's fine too.

I suspect they are going to go under very soon. Respect for others, honesty in dealings, and integrity are very important to any relationship, business or personal. They need to start there- THEN worry about using numerous exclamation points in a premature press release while asking for pre-orders.

It was a mistake to work with them but I am very glad I pulled the plug as soon as I did. They wanted a lot more stuff but when no money ever showed up I simply stopped.

Fundamentally, it seems to be a huge mistake for the new CEO. He has someone with equipment willing to make stuff cheap. First order of business, kick him in the nuts! Way to go new management. We will never know how much money we could have made as a team. Instead they have another bitter and vocal enemy.

Tony and his gang are simply toxic. After years of this, I am wondering when everyone will finally catch on.
Nearly 700 people just dumped over $46 USDk into their hands, with no accountability required.

Sue them.

Amazing.

Well that's removed any doubt in my mind about this bunch, not that there was much before to be honest. Since when can a company refuse to pay its bills because of a change in staff? so far we have seen the same accusations from several respected traders. The evil and incompetent Chinese turned out to be not that way at all and now produce good product, when they say they will produce it.
In my opinion TMP should not even allow these kind of businesses to even post here as they tarnish everything they are associated with. You wouldn't allow recasters so why this?
Has anyone official from DG got any response to these claims from KoY? Can anyone confirm that TR is not in any way associated with the company any more- and by that I mean in no way on the payroll in any capacity. It has been suggested that this whole management change is just smoke and mirrors, business certainly seems to be the same as usual. People who fleece are simply scum, they have no place in a small community like the gaming one. I think they may well be changing hands soon, to their creditors……. Again.

KenofYork – That's terrible news to hear!, you should really consider looking into what can be done about this, truly a shame that they did this to you.

However I feel you can really " put the vice on them" with this post hopefully will force them to quickly pay all the payments they still owe you.

Also you do plastic casted miniatures eh? I may be interested in your services, are you in North America or the UK / Europe? ( you can reach me at underfirewargaming@hotmail.ca)

Anyhow , I truly hope they will give you your owed payment, this is an unacceptable action by any company, I am sure this will make many rethink the Defiance kickstarter.

with best regards, and hope things turn out well for you in this matter – Shawn.

Plenty of lawyers will work for a percentage of recovered funds.
Don't let them walk away from this.

Defiance decided to "reply" on their FB page. Of course their "reply" isn't a real one:

"Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary"

After seeing Ken's post I had a look at his site and found a video of the man himself explaining how he does the injection moulding.

youtu.be/7-g-SJ-P9Wg

I'm real impressed that he's doing all this in his garage. If anyone deserves our support, Ken does. This is the sort of spirit that goes on behind so many wargaming enterprises, people working in sheds and spare rooms doing what they love. Does that mean they shouldn't expect to get paid fairly? Does it ****! There far to few people around with these skills as manufacturing gets moved abroad, lets make sure we nurture the few people we have left in our own countries that can still make these things!
PS he sells all sorts of odds and ends in his shop, let's try and help him out until he gets paid!

link

Left this on their FB page. Hopefully it's left to stay, and not be deleted.

"If money is owed to one party, and the second party just received a large sum of Kickstarter funds, logic dictates the next step. Pay the man."

Stay strong, Ken.

Best,
JBR

"If money is owed to one party, and the second party just received a large sum of Kickstarter funds, logic dictates the next step. Pay the man."

"The laborer earns his wage." IMHO it is as simple as that.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Just seen they are claiming there is no signed contract so they are not doing anything wrong. I know in my work all emails are seen as legal documents and we are occasionally requested copies from our legal dept. the thing I'm not getting here is they are claiming 'previous management' again and absolving themselves of any responsibility, just like the WGF fiasco. Just because everyone has given themselves fancy corporate titles, it is a company of what, 4 people? Are they seriously suggesting they were unaware of an agreement with their only outside supplier? I'm pretty sure there must be emails discussing the in and outs of the trade agreement, price, quantity etc. From the link below, plus thousands of others out there, that may well constitute a binding contract. I'll leave for the lawyers to work out.
link

link

I was under the impression that Gary had been helping with the running of the company for some time before Tony "left"
How could he not have been aware of this? Anyway boxes of stock sitting there in front of him is surely a clue to the fact that the Proxie held up their side of the deal or did they assume he'd just sent them as a gift? A quick check through the accounts (do they even have accounts?!?) would determine if Proxie had been paid or not. No paperwork or emails to check? Very odd!
What's even stranger is that apparently given the fact that they have no memory of every having done any kind of deal to obtain these items, this has in no way stopped them from selling them via their online shop!
Can't say I'm aware of many companies so lacking in records.
Makes you wonder if that kickstarter money is just sitting in a shoebox somewhere!

Can't say I'm aware of many companies so lacking in records.

I wonder what 'records' they show the IRS? Sounds like an audit is in order. I wish I knew someone who worked for the IRS. I'd report them.

For the US, goooglefu "IRS anonymous tip line"…. ;-)

If you have email conversations discussing business terms, Ken, you might have a case.

Personally, I'd hit them with either a lawsuit or lien (or both). New management does not absolve a company of debts incurred under the company name, full stop.

Ok, here is a long response that I will post on the 2 other forums where this has bled over in to as well.

1. It seems ironic for Defiance to accuse Proxie of unethical business behavior. I wrestled with this for a long time because I knew it would reflect poorly on me to be seen attacking another company. I also considered it more unethical to remain silent and have others lose out. I made a decision and it seems to have stirred things up a bit.

2. Gary and me pretty much hate each other. If you read my blog you might have noticed a tendency to be a bit blunt. Gary seems to pride himself on his honesty and I sent him numerous e-mails accusing him of being a liar and a cheat. I was counting on this money to pay a major expense and it hurt my family to not be paid. I was angry and he took the brunt of it. The last message I sent him I asked for Tony to come back. Since Tony is blamed for everything from global warming to bad pop songs I think this really ed him off. Tony is not as bad as he is made out, he was not operating in a vacuum at Defiance, and it is simply outrageous for him to be the sole focus of every problem.

3. All of my business is conducted by emails. Some one sends me an e-mail for an order, I make the stuff and e-mail them an invoice, they pay electronically, and we are all happy. I have never had a signed legal contract with any of my suppliers, or with any of my customers. The standard Defiance is trying to apply is absurd and I wonder how many other people in the industry really get a lawyer and have a legal document drawn up to place a simple order. I sent Gary the e-mails, but by this time we were pretty much done with each other. I called him my sworn foe, a term I have not used since that particularly troublesome NPC in a role play campaign about 25 years ago.

4. I am not getting paid, not now or never. I burnt that bridge, then blew it up with dynamite, then mined the water to prevent fording. Gary is ready to fight it out in court. I have contacted Tony and offered to buy Defiance so I can fire Gary. No really I did.

5. At this point I am ready to call it a day and have a drink or 5. Whatever. Life is too short for all this crap. Anger is not usually a part of my life and I need to get it out of me. So consider the matter closed and I will go about my business and they can go about theirs. People can decide who they want to deal with and who they do not want to deal with. I may look like an ass for exposing this, or Defiance may look like an ass for the way they acted. If I can save one person the frustration I have felt it will have been worth it.

Anyhow, I am finished with this and let's all get back to regular scheduled programing.

Sadly Rustforge seem to have become victims of this too

link

I really hope these guys get paid in the end.
In my experience the wargames companies I've dealt with have without exception been absolutely straight to deal with and that is pretty much the rule to judge from what others in the business say. A gentleman's agreement is usually good enough as we all appreciate how interlinked we are. The odd dodgy company stands out like a sore thumb in such a small community and generally word gets around in no time, but even so it p***es me off no end because it's not easy to make a living at this and a couple of hundred dollars can make a big difference to the smaller operations and as you can see from the example of Rustforge, their loss is compounding Proxies problems

Final update. I am going to post this on the 3 forums this is being talked about on.

I have e-mailed Gary. I want to apologize to him for attacking him so vocally. He has convinced me that every thing was Tony's fault. Tony seems to have used him as a human shield and he has gotten a machine gun blast of my crude attacks. I need to check my targets before going full auto.

I know a lot of inside info regarding Defiance that would make it obvious that he is attempting the impossible. He is bailing the Titanic with a tea spoon.

I am writing off this debt. Defiance has to pay me nothing. Live and learn as they say. I want this to be over with.

I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes.

So that's it then. Over, all cleared up. I am dropping all amounts due me. Not paid, but not owed. If they want to be nice maybe they can send me a box of female marines.

Have a nice day. :)

"I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes."

I suspect the chance of the 600 people getting their Kickstarter deals is the same as you getting paid – ie nil

Just how much was actually owed that they could not pay you without jeopardising their $2,500 USD KS project that was oversubscribed by $40,000 USD+? Sorry Ken but I think you have been taken for something of a ride.

I know. I just need to get my name off the same page as Defiance Games. The sooner the better.

I'm really worried that they don't have a manufacturer lined up now.

Is Defiance doing their own spincasting? They have implied that they're the ones testing and perfecting it, other times it seemed like it was contracted?

"I am doing this because it may interfere with the kick starter delivery and I do not want 600 people blaming me because they did not get their prizes."

Why would they blame you?

You've basically allowed yourself to be scammed. You are not at fault for their lousy business practices, the fact that they can't behave responsibly doesn't absolve them of what they owe you.
People allowing them to get away with it is the reason why they keep doing it.

Kenofyork you've been a perfect gentleman over this, most of us would've been screaming about this long before now, hell if mini's take more than a couple of weeks to arrive I start moaning.

Caesar, if people are stupid enough to have backed the Defiance kickstarter, then they are probably the same idiots who kept defending WGF under Tony, and still supported him through the debacle that was the launch of Defiance games, the woeful terrible sculpts and crap castings that made up their marines, let along the rest of the stuff. They'll blame Ken quick enough as they cannot blame Tony (and he's a patriot don't forget, it's only those bloody commies and pnko lefty europeans who want him to fail). A lot of them are on here so you can see i
To be honest, I've gone past thinking he is incompetent or out of his depth, to thinking he is actually a very good criminal conman.

"I'm really worried that they don't have a manufacturer lined up now.

Is Defiance doing their own spincasting? They have implied that they're the ones testing and perfecting it, other times it seemed like it was contracted?"

That's the $46,000 USD question :-)

alien surfer, I wouldn't call them idiots, but I am amazed at the loyalty that Tony has despite frequently getting caught essentially running scams against customers and business partners.
At every turn, any comment I make about his shenanigans always garners me more stifles. I think fully half of my stifles are associated with me trying to warn people away from this dishonest person and his company.

Good people get hurt by Tony and Defiance.

Caesar, it is the enablers that puzzle me as well. I am still baffled by all the mixed messages I got from them. I do wish I had not lost my temper, but you are right about people being hurt by this company. I got to see it first hand and it really is infuriating. People work long and hard and make sacrifices to try and build something. If I lose it because of my mistake is one thing. To lose it because someone else ruined it is a bitter pill to swallow.

Still do not know who is at fault or who is behind the mess. At first I figured Gary because Tony threw him under the bus in our conversation. But Gary seems to be in a mess as well. Even people who have been run down and trampled still take up for Tony. He must be a very loveable person to engender such friendship and loyalty.

Like my first report stated- if you work with Defiance be careful. I am very lucky another order came in or I would have been close to going out of business. Some people would have folded, and I wonder if Defiance would have even cared a bit. I for one will not be taking up for him any more. He deflected my frustration towards Gary but now I think I was tricked yet again.

Never again.

Wow, the Tony/WGF/Defiance games saga just keeps going from bad to worse. It seems that crew never misses a change to screw up, screw someone or just generally screw around.

-Will

Rustforge container sale:

link

I liked the look of the UAMC marines, so I bought a box from the War Store. Know why? Because I trust the War Store.

I like the Wargames Factory Greatcoat Shock Troopers. So I bought 3 boxes from Miniature Market. Know why? Because I trust Miniature Market (and they were on sale).

I bought a box of WF Zombie Vixens at Gen Con. Know why? Because the box was in my hand before I forked over the cash (and because they gave me an extra sprue).

I live close enough to Boston that I see DG and WF stuff on retail shelves, and that's good, because it's the only way I would buy stuff (other than the aforementioned web retailers)from either company based on their terrible press. WF seems to have gotten their act together, but DG is just nightmare after nightmare. I feel for this guy Gary if he inherited a crap-show, but in the end, the company either needs to meet its obligations or fall on its sword, no matter who is in charge now.

Kenofyork you've been a perfect gentleman over this, most of us would've been screaming about this long before now

Oh, very much so. Remember, customers don't get their miniatures, and that sucks. But the cost of a box or two of miniatures is a lot less than what Ken was owed. And as a business owner myself (albeit nothing to do with gaming), I sympathize: if you don't get money you're counting on, it can really hose your business, to say nothing of your personal obligations.

Angry Piper, remember Wargames Factory has nothing to do with Defective.. sorry Defiance, they are run by a successful ex-creditor who was owed so much he took control of Wargames Factory, they also produce the excellent Dreamforge plastics… I'll be ordering before christmas.

I got a check today for the products I sent to Defiance. I want to make sure to report the facts as far as I know. Take it for what it is worth and let's not try to read things in to it, but someone at the company has settled up with me. Defiance has gotten some bad press because of the non-payment to me. They have corrected the issue and I wanted to let it be known that all accounts are paid up.

Interesting, good to hear. It's a step in the right direction.

Basically telling us what we already knew:

"Darred Surin wrote:Update with Me and My Supposed Dream Job
Nov07by verycutegm on November 7, 2013 at 9:24 pm
Posted In: Blog, Personal
So a while back I had mentioned that I landed my dream job with a war game company which produced miniatures similar to those of Warhammer 40k. I haven't said anything about this for sometime, but they say writing is therapeutic and maybe this will make me feel a little better. I will not be using real names, this is more of a venting thing than anything.

Allow me to start from the beginning, earlier in the year I was a laboratory technician in a hospital in the research division. There were elements in my environment which brought down the overall morale of the workplace. These things were out of my control and didn't affect me directly, but those who were affected then affected me. I dreaded going to work everyday and repeating the same tasks over and over again without reward. There wasn't any chance for me to achieve a promotion or receiving more money.

For a few months I had been doing some volunteer work for a war game company. Let's call this company Spice Games, because why the hell not? George, the person who got me involved with the company, found out how miserable I was at my tech job and I begged him to have his boss hire me. Tim, his boss, gave me the low down on what I would do. I would be a sorter, which meant I would be sorting parts. My pay wouldn't be as much as it was as a tech, but eventually I could be on a more creative part of the process. I would get to write! I could live cheaply for a while but I'd be doing something I've always wanted to do.

Shame on me I should've done research on Tim, but I digress. So I work with George, his son Mick and, his friend Henry. Things go swimmingly for a month, but I start getting really suspicious. For example, we are not shipping out enough products to sustain us. By the way George and Mick haven't been paid for two years. Things are always going wrong mostly, because of Tim. Tim is never in the office; George, Henry, Mick, and I are doing all the physical work.

Then one day Tim goes in and tells us that we are taking the next week off because he doesn't have money to pay Henry and me. Literally there isn't any money at all. At this point it is clear Spice Games needs a change so we go to Tim and offer to take manage the company. Part of out plan was to do a Kickstarter. We had a lot of concept art and most of the legwork for the Kickstarter project done we just needed a little bit of money.

During this transition of management we requested Tim to give us all information on distributors, contracts, and bank account information so we can run the business smoothly. We gave him two weeks to give us this information. Tim is slow to do so. I mean we never got a lot of what we asked for.

Long story short Kickstarter is wildly successful and we finally some of the information we requested. That is when we found out Spice Games is heavily in debt. I am not going to give an accurate number but it is huge. This company has been around for 3 years and has nothing to show for it. There is also another thing, people that have done work for Spice Games are emailing us now asking us to pay them. A lot of these people are angry. By the way we haven't been paid for managing the Kickstarter and other tasks we were doing because again no money yet.

We had asked Tim is stay out of our way and to manage things. But he pesters us continuously with new ideas for the Kickstarter. These ideas are either useless or way too expensive to produce. The ideas would've hindered us.

We should've left at that point. We were foolish to think we could fix it. Then we get a break we get investors who are willing to give us money if Tim is out of the picture. You see we found things out about Tim. A simple internet search was all that was needed. I have never seen someone who is more financially irresponsible in all of my life. It is still astounding.

It was then we decided to try to buy the company from Tim. So Tim who is willingly to let us take the company gives us a ridiculous offer for the company which would involve us taking the company debt, all of it, and he would still get 20% of the company. Never… at this point we're all tired and tell Tim we will work on the Kickstarter for a short amount of time, because the money from the Kickstater would only pay us for a couple of months. It would be Tim's job to find new employees to do the rest of the work.

We were drained and tired. All of use are worked up and so wound up. Tim found someone foolish enough to take the company off his hands where he would still be a partner leaving the rest of us in the dust. At this point I just want my back pay.

I am happy to leave. Working with George, Henry, and Mick were the happiest weeks, but Tim was a nightmare. He always dragged his feet, he didn't work like the rest of us, and his excuse was he was in meetings all day, which I knew was probably a lie. The new company George, Henry, Mick, and I will create will be much better and hopefully it'll be more fun.

This is the short of what happened. At the moment I am unemployed and looking for work until the new company gets on its feet. There was a lot more crap that went on but I don't have the energy to talk about that anymore."

im beginning to have my doubts about this defiance games thingy….

im beginning to have my doubts about this defiance games thingy….

You're just beginning to have doubts now? :)

Several people have asked about the events that happened that caused Rust Forge to seek legal assistance in order to secure payment from Defiance Games. Below is a timeline of events that should answer everyone's questions.

Days 1 – 14 We contacted Defiance to inquire about a product trade for advertising purposes. We had been searching for some 28mm hard sci-fi miniatures to use for display and advertising to help show our products scale and we thought that the DG marines might fit the bill. Initially we sought to trade them some cargo containers they could use in a similar fashion for their promotional materials. DG countered that they would actually like to carry the product as part of their Alien Suns line. After discussion, it was decided to go ahead with this plan. Their order was placed and shipped with a NET10 payment schedule.

Days 15 – 45 A second smaller order was placed this time with a net 30 pay schedule before the initial net 10 became due. When the initial net 10 came due DG stated that the initial NET10 payment wasn't possible for them to make and asked for a NET 30 on the original order citing waiting on distributor payments. As having to wait for a distributor to send payment on their own net 30, net 60, or sometimes longer schedule is not uncommon we agreed with this time frame. After the 30 days had gone by with no payment, DG stated that due to some production issues, they had not received the money that they were expected and were going to be further delayed with payment. We weren't happy, but we accepted this reason. Everyone has unexpected issues that crop up from time to time.

Days 46 – 90(ish) DG continued to be in regular communication throughout this time. They continued asserting that the production issues were causing the delays and as soon as they were paid we would be paid. They also stated that the were having discussions with possible investors that would speed up the payment timing issues. During the end of this timeframe, we began discussing possible legal actions with our attorney. We decided to hold off for a bit more time because we still felt that we weren't be lied to and that DG were just having a rough time.

Days 91(ish) – 120(ish) DG launched their kickstarter and announced the management change. We learned of the change when everyone else did via 3rd party sources. We had no prior notice of this before the first public notice on FB and the DG website. We immediately contacted the "new" management who continued with the same story of delay issues, BUT started to give us time frames of when we would get paid. These time frames came and went several times with no payment or likelihood of one. At time we began to witness a serious level of blame being thrown between the old and new management. Each claiming the other was responsible for the debts of the business, controlled access to funds for making payments, and whose responsibility it was to satisfy the debts. At this time we told the attorney to send the intent of lawsuit paperwork. Immediately after talking to our attorney, DG announced that the "new" management is no longer the management at all.

Days 121(ish – 135 Our attorney sends the intent of lawsuit paperwork to both Tony and Gary (old and new management). Gary immediately replies that he is no longer management and that he never was actually in charge and that this is Tony's issue. Tony replies that a check will be sent out shortly. Almost one week later we received a check, for full payment owed, by Tony. That check was cashed and had since cleared in full.

As of today we have had several discussions since this all started and we have determined that for the time being, DG is in too much turmoil to continue to do business with. It is just not a good idea considering all the new information that has come to light the past few weeks to continue to be associated with DG. Tony is a very likable individual. He is very pleasant to talk to and has many high hopes and ideas for his company. We hope that he can get things together so they can be brought to reality.

I hope that clears everything up with people. We do not hold any ill will towards anyone involved. Everything was finally resolved and in full. We are moving forward and we hope that all other parties are able to so as well.

Good to hear things worked out well for you, Rustforge.

So, Gary Pelletier and Tony Reidy lied about the management change in order to entice people to fund the kickstarter?

So, Gary Pelletier and Tony Reidy lied about the management change in order to entice people to fund the kickstarter?

Sure looks that way, doesn't it?