"Langton's HMS Glatton" Topic

The latest addition to my growing fleet is the HMS Glatton 56 gun 4th rate. 28 x 64 pounder carronades on the lower gun deck and 28 x 42 pounder carronades on the upper gun deck.

More photos at volsminiatures.blogspot.com
Thanks for looking.

Very nice!

I like the base especially!

A sawn-off shotgun of a ship…

Most famous commander? William Bligh.

Beautiful work. How'd you do the base?

William Bligh was captain of the Glatton at the battle for Copenhagen.

I use matt board for the base 3cm x 10cm. I spray coat the base to seal it before applying the texture. Ocean texture is common wall spackle. Base color is a mix of 2 parts navy blue, 1 part black, 1 part greenish blue (Anita's 11056 Ocean Blue). Dry brush navy blue highlights and white wave tips and the wake around the ship. Coat with ModPodge or triple thick gloss glaze.

Beautiful work. One question though… Why the Union Jack instead of an Ensign?

What did you use for the rigging? especially the shrouds and ratlines?

I agree, really nice work. I just have to start experimenting with bases. Mine are just plain dark blue cardstock mounted on thick chipboard.

Lovely, I very much like the towing boats
Rory

carne68,
In 1707, new ensigns were established for the Royal Navy. All ships were ordered to fly the Union Flag as a jack and each squadron was given its own ensign displaying the First Union Flag in the canton. (In 1801 the diagonal red Cross of St. Patrick was added to the Union Flag.) These Red, Blue and White ensigns were used until 1864. In that year, the Union Jack and the White Ensign were reserved for the Royal Navy, the Blue Ensign was reserved for the use of qualified Royal Naval Reserve officers in command of merchant ships, and the Red Ensign became the British merchant ensign. All three are still in use today.
tmg110.tripod.com/british1.htm
tmg110.tripod.com/british13.htm
It is my understanding that all RN Ships flew the Union Flag. When attached to a squadron, the ensign and commission pennants were flown. When sent on a mission away from the squadron, the Union Flag and commission pennant were flown. When detached from squadron duty, on a solitary cruise, just the Union Flag was use and maybe the common commission pennant. Please correct me if I am misstaken so I can fix my ships to the correct protocols.

James Cullen,
There has been some discussion about this at "Modeling 1:1200 Scale Napoleonic Sailing Ships" Topic In WorkBench.

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Great looking ship Vol, well done! – James

Volunteer,

You are quite correct that the Union Flag was the Jack for all Royal Navy vessels and that, until 1864, each squadron had its own ensign.

The missing piece of information might be that in the Royal Navy, and I believe in the US Navy, the difference between a jack and an ensign is that the jack is flown from the bow, when at anchor or alongside, and the ensign is flown from the stern during daylight hours alongside and when under way. (In modern ships, especially those involved in flying operations, the ensign is flown from the mast when under way.)

Nice model.

22ndFoot,
But isn't the jack a smaller flag flown at the ship's bow, while the union flag is much larger and flown from the stern or mast? Seems like I read that somewhere recently.

Anyone out there across the pond know the correct protocols?
I do want my ships colors to be right.

Volunteer,

While I live in the States now, I was lucky enough to serve in the Royal Navy in my youth.

You are correct, the jack is flown at the bow and it is flown from the "jack staff". (Charles II made a proclamation that the Union Flag should be flown only by ships of the Royal Navy as a jack at the bowsprit.)

As far as I am aware, the Union Flag may be flown as a jack by Royal Navy ships when alongside or at anchor. It will be flown from the masthead only if the ship is dressed with masthead ensigns or if the Monarch or an Admiral of the Fleet is on board, whether alongside, anchored or underway, and it will be flown from the masthead if there is a court martial is in progress on board.

The ensign, originally red blue or white, now always white, is flown from the stern; in sailing ships hard up against the mizzen gaff as you have the Union Flag here.

A quick Google search of comtemporary pictures shows many ships going into action dressed with masthead ensigns but there may be some artistic licence in this as it should not interfere with signaling.

An admiral's flag would be flown from the fore top mast.

I particularly like the way you have her boats towing astern.

Cheers

Volunteer,

By the way, I did go to your blog and checked out the pictures of your set up. That is very impressive indeed! Bravo Zulu.

Cheers

Very nice as an entire set piece, as I agree that the base adds very much to the overall effect.

22ndFoot,

Thank you very much. You are a wealth of info and I intend on picking your brain for more info in the future. So bottom line is I need to remove the union flag from the stern of my vessels and replace with ensigns. What about frigates and sloops on solitary cruises that aren't attached to squadrons? What flag would they fly at the stern? I know most wouldn't have anything flying until right before engaging, but since most of my ships are at quarters I want to show colors.

And thank you for the kind words about the blog. I wish I was more computer savy so I could make improvements. I can't figure out how to archive the posts by month and year like everyone else's blogs.

Vol

Vol, you do some incredible work! I really like the time you put into the bases….makes them look so realistic. And your ship work is simply marvelous. I saved your blog spot as a Favorite…that is so cool that you include the background info on your projects. You do what I wish I had time for! Keep it up please!
Your friend,
Rob

Thank you Rob, I couldn't have done most of it without you.

Here are the follow up photos of the Glatton with the proper ensign and commission pennant for the battle of Copenhagen:

I'm really impressed that you get such great effects on the base out of just simple spackle Vol. I really like the look a lot. I've never tried my hand at making my own base – Waterloo Minis is keeping me supplied with pre-made Langton bases. (Thanks Rob for great service by the way!) – James

Volunteer,

You are most welcome.

As to your detached service question, you've got me there. I had thought that ships under admiralty orders would fly the white ensign but this doesn't square with the order of seniority of the ensigns (red, white and blue). I would suggest if they were operating under the orders of an admiral of a specific squadron they would fly the ensign appropriate to the admiral.

I wonder if there is anybody else as interested in this as us who might know.

Cheers.

Thanks James for the kind words and 22ndFoot for the good info.

Hello out there! Calling all fighting sail era buffs! Can anyone answer the question? What about frigates and sloops on solitary cruises? What flag would they fly at the stern? If they are under Admiralty orders, but not attached to a specific squadron, what commission pennant? A definitive answer would be greatly appreciated. Maybe I should start this as a new post topic?

Vol, before you open a new topic, how would/do you use H.M.S. Glatton on the war-gamming table? Its base is longer than a 1st rate ship. I love the model but I must ask?
Sorry if I'm being a party poo-per, Rory

You're not being a party p'per Rory, it is a legitimate question. The only reason I made the base longer than standard was to accomodate the towed boats. All ships put off their boats before battle if possible to protect them. This is a factor missing in most rules I have seen. I'm not sure yet how, since I am one of those challenged with no other historical wargamers in the local vacinity. Just scifi/fantasy. So I have to play with myself (he said with a smirk) :)

Definitive is always a bit strong 200 years on, but culled from Lavery's "Nelson's Navy" and Wilson's "Flags at Sea":-

The pendant was worn all the time to show the ship was in commission 'this part of the colours is never hauled down day or night'.

The pendant is flown from the main mast, and is a long streamer with a St George's cross on a white field next to the mast, with the fly (or tail) being either red, white or blue or the colour of the particular ensign worn by the ship.

A private ship (carrying no-one of higher rank than the captain), flew the long, thin pendant – with a commodore on board they would carry 'the broad pendant' either red, white or blue.

Admirals flew rectangular flags of their colour (red, white or blue) at the main. The Admiral of the Fleet wore a Union flag from the mainmast.

A ship under squadronal command flew the red, blue or white ensign of the admiral (although this could be changed to distinguish divisions in action or by the Admiral's preference).

A ship operating independently (i.e. under Admiralty orders) wore the senior flag, the red ensign. According to Wilson, it was not obligatory to fly the ensign while at sea but the pennant was always so.

Hope that helps

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

Vol,
How I wish we lived closer! I would game wooden ships with you. How about marking the base (a stronger white wave, two marks on the side of the base or two colour buoys on the base) at the right place. Then you could slide the turning aid under the base to the right place, and use so. The only down-side is stern rake, close line or boarding from the stern? Maybe Have a ligth card template of the 2nd ship so that you could remove the model and lay the template over you ship,s boats.
Be safe
Rory

Good ideas all Rory. I'll see what I can come up with. I wish there was something in the rules about ship's boats to reflect the reality that they were used in battle and/or took damage. Something like if they were not put off they would add to the damage taken in a broadside and add to the time to make repairs. If they were taken off prior to the fight they would add to the ship's ability to make repairs by subtracting time to make such. Just thinking.

Mark, Thanks for the info but I still have a lot of questions.

"A private ship (carrying no-one of higher rank than the captain), flew the long, thin pendant – with a commodore on board they would carry 'the broad pendant' either red, white or blue."

What color would the long thin pendant be? The cross of St. George granted, but white, blue or red? Wasn't there a "common" commission pendant that had a thin red stripe its full length of tail. It seems I saw one like that in a book sometime back. Was the broad pendant in addition to the commission pendant or did it replace it at the main?

"Admirals flew rectangular flags of their colour (red, white or blue) at the main. The Admiral of the Fleet wore a Union flag from the mainmast."

With both the admiral's flag and the union flag flying from the mainmast, there wouldn't be much room for the commission pendant too. These 1:1200 ships barely have enough room for the pendant alone. Was nothing ever flown from the foremast?

"The pendant was worn all the time to show the ship was in commission 'this part of the colours is never hauled down day or night"

Many of the stories in literature and reports in histories like William James' volumes describe Royal Navy ships flying French colors to get close to enemy vessels or forts/shore batteries, then hoisting the british colors prior to engaging. How would they do this if still flying the commission pendants? Just asking.

I know I'm being a pain of a stickler with all of these questions, sorry.

Mark,

I found something. Google Books link
All You Wanted To Know About 18th Century Royal Navy By Rex Hickox on page 96 has a picture of four commission pendants. There are the three colored pendands; red, white and blue; and a fourth called a common commission pendant described as follows: "A 'common pennant'(one without a squadron's color) had the Cross of St. George at the hoist and the rest striped in red, white and blue. Pennants were the mark of a warship and flew all the time unless struck on the hoisting of a command flag." I guess this answers a couple of my questions. I wish I could copy the picture here but you can't do that with Google books. You can go to the link though and scroll to page 96 to see it.

Vol

It's probably best not to get too overwrought about the type and location of flags. Admirals and captains at sea exercised considerable autonomy and, while adhering to the basics (like the ensign at the mizzen peak, and the pendant at the main), they were quite willing to improvise. For example, when engaging the Constitution the Java was reported to have, in addition to her ensign in the usual place, a Union Jack at the mizzen topgallant and another lashed to the mainmast rigging. Before the Battle of Camperdown, Admiral Duncan specified various flags at various locations on his ships so they could be more easily identified in action.

As for the boats, it certainly would add color, but I'm doubtful that they had any significant effect during the action (although, obviously, having undamaged boats after the battle was over would be a great advantage). I would guess the location of the boats in combat would be on a par with keeping track of whether the Captain's chicken coops had been tossed overboard or were still cluttering up the deck, how many men were suffering from the flux from bad rations, or the effect on morale when a 24 pound shot smashes the casks containing the rum ration. Great stuff, but probably better suited to a game with a strong role-playing element.

Jeff

Though I have yet to play a game of Kiss Me Hardy where I have used them, I like that the rules do provide for the use of ships boats. They can be launched to make their way over and try to board another vessel (in battle or in a cutting out expedition) and if the wind drops off they can be used to tow a ship. Vessels are allocated 6 or 7 boats, which can be destroyed aboard ship through "special damage". When in the water they are targeted like anything else. Like I say, I've not yet managed to employ those rules, but it makes a nice addition. – James

"Trafalgar" has simple rules for small boat use and added damage for boats on board. Langtons "Signal Close Action" have it all about small boats in the appendices I have used "Trafalgar" but they seem to be a late add-on, but userable. S.C.A. I have only read, but as alway's seem very detailed.
Rory

Sounds like KMH are the rules for me. Thanks James

My impression is that in action, small boats were either towed behind the ship to free up the deck space or were chocked sort of high and pumped full of water in order to assist fighting fires.

Very impressive work as always Vol. I feel for you about the flags its always frustrating having to go back and change something when you find out more information.
How did the 2mm go by the way?

Volunteer,

Just giving you some rules of thumb as to the normal way things were flown.

Obviously ships (usually frigates) flying false colours were cheating anyway but would "show their true colours" before getting down to actually engaging.

If modelling a particular action then contemporary accounts are a goldmine – some battles like the Glorious First of June and Aboukir Bay actually had artists present !

I like to have my ships generically representative as we do lots of different actions and need to be able to put ships on the table without them looking incongruous.

Best wishes,

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

Mark,
Thanks.

Ben,
Haven't received them from Silvereagle yet. Hopefully they will be there when I get home in 10 more days.

@Volunteer: very pretty 'tall lady' you have there. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around an all-carronade armament, though…

Pretty lethal at short range. The trouble was to get that close.