"Game stats verse Fluff" Topic

Should the Game stats for Gaming units be in line with the background. I posted stats for an elite drop force which are based on Genetically enhance Elite troops in Ultra High tech Power Armor & Some of the responses I received accused the stats of being Cheesy or over powered. I play at Company Level which is very different from skirmish games & tested the stats both using the force & fighting against it & the 1 thing which was a little overpowering I removed.

A good example of game stats not matching background is 40K Space Marines which if you go by the background you should only have to field a squad or 2 to fight against full forces of most other troops.

So I am asking weather background information is important or just useless information for Science Fiction War gaming.

Should the Game stats for Gaming units be in line with the background.

Of course they should. Otherwise the unit does not represent the unit in the background.

If the Fluff is important enough to be written, then the game stats should reflect the fluff.

On the other hand, the game is supposed to be fun for everyone playing. It doesn't sound like your ignoring that.

If you have super uber troops such as you describe and they are in line with the background then all is well.

To make the game fun you need to balance the forces somehow, otherwise yes it could be unfair and boring.

In my 6mm skirmish games having ordinary troops in power armour vs those without unbalances the game, if they were elite then it would be very unbalanced.
So I make sure the other side has more or bigger guns or an easy objective.

I own most of the forces my group uses & have tried to balance them as well as possible. First light & medium infantry usually will out number them on at least 2 to 1 & have a lot more vehicles. All my forces are mechanized Unless Drop Troops using pods & an APC has more than a fair chance of killing light power armor & the heavier vehicles are even deadlier.

Take OGRE for example. You don't get much more "uber" than a OGRE. It is balanced as in you generally get one. It's all about finding that balance, whether it be a scenario or point system (each of which has their own issues).

The only way it really becomes "cheese" or "munchkin" is if there is no effective counter to the "uber" unit.

Hi Tim

I think my comment (about cheese :) from the Gruntz forum is one of those you are referring to. It was just a flippant one liner and doesn't really convey all I was taking into account. Brother Jim has summed it up but I'll elaborate on my post.

I take no issue with elite troops statted up as such as long as the game system is robust enough to keep the game fair and enjoyably playable for both sides.

If the game does start to "break" in certain circumstances, then as long as both players take that into account and keep it fun then that's great.

I agree with Jim that you seem to be addressing all this and I hope that my post on the Gruntz forum caused no insult. To be fair, I was still half asleep when I wrote it and I whacked a big smiley into my comment.

My concern is probably less about the stats you chose and more about whether or not the Gruntz system is fine-tuned enough to handle them. Judging by Robin's post on the same thread, I'm guessing even he thinks some self-restraint is needed for his points system. That's fair enough though as I don't think any points system is unbreakable.

Cheers
BaldLea

Hi BaldLea

You had a valid point with the Heavy force shields they were unbalanced. I didn't take Issue with your post it made me look at the stats again & remove the Heavy Force Fields, which was the one thing I was unsure about. I very rarely rely on a game point system for balance as I have found that they actually are not mathematically sound. Balancing a Game is a Matter of experience. I balance most of my games using Narratives & TO&Es created for each force involved. Additionally I play at a tactical level (preferring Company level actions)not a skirmish level, the forces for my Federal Army are actually one of my smaller factions link . I am still working on getting most of my forces painted up so currently use partially painted figures so haven't posted battle reports as yet.

I would say it depends on the game and how figures are stated. Many games have oddities that do not account for all of the advantages that an elite force will get in the game over an average trooper. It can becomes difficult to make forces that are both appropriate to the fluff as well as fun to play with and against. So, you may be inadvertently taking advantage of those foibles of game design in a way that makes the game less fun.

"So, you may be inadvertently taking advantage of those foibles of game design in a way that makes the game less fun."

I play with & against every force I own & the forces & Mission objectives are selected prior to randomly determining who plays using each force.
Even the trooper armed with the weakest weapon a projectile rifle has a 27% chance of taking light power armor out with a single hit.

I'm with Timlilig on this one.
I don't think most games are really built to take into account the full range of ability of whatever fluff they might be based on or adapted too, and trying to stat the figures to reflect given fluff is going to mess with the game.

What I'm trying to say is that in answer to the OP's question I would say
"Sometimes, but not always"

In most cases it's going to be a balance. The 40k example in the OP is a good one. Of course marines in 40k don't match their fluff, but they're still relatively tough and stronger than most other basic troops, so while it isn't perfect, it does a pretty good job of capturing the vibe of the 40k universe.

Accuracy in relation to fluff is just one more factor of a game. It shouldn't be the sole consideration and must be taken into consideration and balanced with things like playability, complexity and other goals of a given ruleset.

Well, GW is a miniatures manufacturer that sells games you can use their minis for.
If the 40K Space Marine stats actually matched the fluff the Marine player would only need to buy a few squads. This wouldn't make GW as much money OR it would make the money cost of SMs even more redonkulously expensive.

Well, there is the Draigowing build for Grey Knights, which consists of 16 terminators and maybe a transport or two.

The real world isn't balanced yet low tech forces still manage to hold there own against higher tech opponents. They do that as their objectives are different to their higher tech enemy and they either throw numbers at the tactical problem or use guerilla tactics. I don't see why things wouldn't follow a similar pattern in the future.

In my opinion, fluff should match game stats. Fluff is just pretty words and pictures to get people excited about a game, and inspire them. But once the game is under way, how it plays will determine if the players have fun and come back for more.

Of course, if you 'invented' gothic super men in powered armour, then you game can apparently be as broken as possible and people will still throw money at you. ;)