"Smaller nation artillery equipment" Topic

Is there a source, preferably on line, giving details of equipment used by nations such as Bavaria, Saxony and Württenburg.
I have the Osprey "Napoleonic artillery Eqpt." but it only describes equipment of the major participants.
Perhaps a quick pointer to gun colours too?
Thanks

Hi Goldstar

Here is a list of gun colours that may help

Hesse-Damstadt - Mid-blue woodwork, black carriage fittings.
Baden - Grey/drk grey woodwork, black carriage fittings.
Bavaria - Light blue-grey woodwork, black carriage fittings.
United States - Light blue woodwork, Black carriage fittings.
Saxony - Dark grey woodwork, yellow carriage fittings.
Naples - Light blue woodwork, black carriage fittings.
Sweden - Greenish blue woodwork, black carriage fittings.
Spain - White/ light grey woodwork, black carriage fittings or it could be stained woodwork, black carriage fittings, I’m not to sure about this one but I don’t think many people are. Answers on a postcard folk if you know what colour they should be.
Italy - Grey woodwork, black carriage fittings.
Austria - Yellow ochre woodwork, black carriage fittings.
Brunswick (l809) - Same as Austria. Equipped with Austrian guns.
Brunswick (1814) - Same as British. Equipped with British guns.
British - Mid blue-grey woodwork, black carriage fittings.
France - Olive green woodwork, black carriage fittings.
Poland - Same as French.
Prussia - Mid-blue woodwork, black carriage fittings.
Russia - Apple green woodwork, black carriage fittings.
Wurttemburg - Stained woodwork, yellow carriage fittings.
Portugal (1808) - Same as British. They were equipped with British guns.
Westphalia - Green woodwork, black carriage fittings. The Westphalian guns also had yellow pinstripes on there wheels.

Hope this is of use

David

Great, just what I needed. Thanks. Where did you get this info from, by the way?

Cheers.

Denmark - gray with black fittings. Some will tell you red, but this was only for the fortress artillery. And even then it was more barn red rather than fire-engine red.

Bavaria was officially cornflower blue (what else?) but the paint tended to go grayish due to weathering.

The US stuff is puzzling. There are definitely reports of blue carriages (possibly similar to British blue-gray), but Toussard (author of American Artillerist's Companion and retired Chief of Artillery) gives olive drab, with essentially the same paint fomula that's in the 1861 Ordnance Manual!

Any idea about the Dutch-Belgians of 1815? I would guess they'd have the same as the British. Can anyone confirm?

Steve

rmaker said:

"The US stuff is puzzling. There are definitely reports of blue carriages (possibly similar to British blue-gray), but Toussard (author of American Artillerist's Companion and retired Chief of Artillery) gives olive drab, with essentially the same paint fomula that's in the 1861 Ordnance Manual!"

Possibly a transitional period from one regulation to another?

Gun carriages at Chalmette Battlefield, Horseshoe Bend, and Fort McHenry are sky/light blue so that is what I painted mine, but I have no idea if this is correct.

Brunswick in 1814 would have had French guns, there is a report from the officer sent to the post-Leipzig carboot sale where he accounts for buying a complete battery, guns, limbers, caissons etc of captured French 6lbers.

Dutch-Belgians could have had some British pieces, but it is more likely that they had a mix of stuff. try the link for a wealth of info.

link

Wurts are described in Rawkins (thanks Zippee!) as yellow metal fittings. However, the Faber du Faur plates (and he was an officer in the artillery) seem to show black (or possibly grey) fittings. The carriages do seem to be wood.

The Dutch do not seem to have had any British pieces in 1815.

I have also seen Italy as having dark green and Spanish as blue (red for (older) garrison guns). Again, most Spanish pieces do not seem to have been British but Gribeauval pattern Spanish guns (with sturdier wheels than the French counterparts) or captured French ones (sometimes apparently captured after the wheels had broken on rough Spanish roads).

Swampster

Swampster, thicker wheels in 6mm ? you're 'aving a larf mate.

Roll some milliput very finely.
Apply it delicately to the wheels.
Watch it fall off.
Roll it up and flick it at the cat.
Tell everyone you have actually converted the Spanish guns.
8-)

Swampster

John Cook once sent me a picture (apparently sketched from life), showing a late-18th C Saxon artillery park - guns, carriages, wagons and caissons in slate grey, with red lids to the caissons and red tarpaulins on the wagons.

There was a recent discussion here on Dutch-Belgian artilery from 1815, if you want to search for it. I seem to remember that the conclusion (gleaned from authoritative people such as Geert van Uythoven, as I remember) was that they used French equipment (carriage colour unknown).

The Company of Military Historians also state, along with Tousard, that US gun carriages and ancillary vehicles were painted a dark green, somewhat similar to the French color. The US Army did a partial adoption of the Gribeauval System in 1809.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Hi All

My information on the US gun coulours was provided by Ove Jenson, head curator for the muesum of american battlefield equipment.

I use to think that US artillery was painted dark green but Ove pointed out that this was later used towards the ACW period.

The Saxons in Russia were equipped with Austrian guns, but I am not sure what colour - the pieces which survived into the late 19th century were apparently painted red. There are models at Rastatt, which were published by Roland Kessinger in "Die Revolution ist uns nah" - my copy is out on loan at present, but I seem to recell a Baden gun in dark green with the Wurst seat.

The Horseshoe bend artillery guns that Alabama refers to are also twin trail not the British style double trail. The blue is not the light sky blue but a blue-gray mix. Another note is that the carriages are the same for the different barrel poundages and not variable like many of the casting companies use. I live close to it and go there frequently.

Beware of what you see in US National and State parks. Especially those that date to the WPA era. WPA work is notorious for it's inaccuracy.

For non-American's, WPA stands for Works Progress Administration - Franklin Roosevelt's Depression era make-work relief organization. They did a lot of good things in the parks (laying out trails, putting up buildings, etc.), but their historical "reconstructions" make Hollywood look good.

There is a lot of good work now being done by the historians at the battlefield parks such as finding new information on positions and who did what to whom when. Don Long and Nancy Stewart at Guilford Courthouse are particularly noteworthy for their efforts.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Some of the sources that I have checked on the US-Creek Civil War of 1812 indicate that the double trail was viewed as being more strudy for 'Frontier' duty than the single trail British style guns.

I have also seen sources that mention the use of both blue-gray and dark green for US guns. Could they have used both?

Rudy,
I don't see why not. Artillery units in outlying areas (New Orleans perhaps) might not have gotten the word, or, more likely, sometimes regulations/directives were ignored.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Kevin, A question that I will have to check out. Was the artillery unit at New Orleans the same as the one that was with Jackson during his Creek War Campaign? I do not think so since the Creek War action was in a different Military District than NO. Though some Creek War units mainly militia and volunteers, also participated during the 1814 incursion into Florida Seminole (same Native Nation just a different name) country.

Rudy,
I have absolutely no idea. The artillery at New Orleans is pretty well laid out in Robin Reilly's excellent The British at the Gates, which is probably the definitive account. It was just reprinted a couple of years ago. Two others that might help you are Henry Adams' The War of 1812 (which was reprinted in 1999 I think), and John Elting's Amateurs, To Arms! The last also goes into Jackson's campaigns against the Indians if I recall correctly.
The artillery at New Orleans was partly regular, partly Jean Lafitte's folks, and probably a Marine or two, as they were also handy as gun crews.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Kevin, May I suggest Owsley's 'Struggle for Gulf borderlands'. Covers both the Creek Civil War and the new orleans campaign.

At Horseshoe Bend, the artillery crew was regular Army from the Tennesse District. The number of artillerymen with the Georgia and Mississippi (New Orleans District) columns are harder to identify.

Maybe we should have started an US War of 1812 artillery topic?

Kevin, During my research for my Latin American Wars of Independence articles, I found the use of Artillery very limited. It seems that most field carriages were painted red. Any other versions of color found?

Any extra data from a Artillery veteran would be greatly appreciated. Other folks please feel free to add your findings as well.

Rudy,
Thanks for the tip on the book. I'll take a look to see if I can find it.
I have absolutely no knowledge of the Latin American wars of independence except that they did take place. Noting the terrain, though, I am not surprised that artillery was not as big a player as in Europe.
Generally speaking, the French made note of the difficulty of using artillery in Spain and Portugal, and substituted the 8-pounder for the 12-pounder as it was too heavy and replacement draft horses were hard to come by.
Dickson notes in his correspondence that mules were liberally used by the allies in Spain, even as officer's mounts. Dickson, a very competent artilleryman and artillery commander, had the misfortune to be the British artillery commander at New Orleans. The Royal Navy was quick to note the Royal Artillery's shortcomings in a very 'down the nose' fashion, even though some of the gunners were sailors.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Rudy,
I found a copy and am ordering it. Thanks very much for the tip. It is deeply appreciated.

Sincerely,
Kevin

A thread elsewhere has produced a discussion about French artillery green. Using modern pigments to follow the official proportions of yellow ochre and black creates a slightly dirty beige colour. Most of the seconadary sources I have show a more greenish hue. Is this because the original pigments had a different intensity, producing more of a khaki colour? One paint manufacturer recommends WW2 Russian uniform green - their paint for this being a lightish khaki-ish green.
Any opinions?

Just an opinion but I was under the impresseion that most pre-1900s paint was either vegstable or mineral based. I am not sure about the paint today.

Correction = vegstable = vegetables