"French airstrikes in Mali..." Topic

The Islamist militias in Libya took a huge pounding months ago…

They have since, you may recall, had an election and are now working on a Constitution last I heard.

Not every Arab rebel is AQ….

Now Dafydd, kindly answer my question. Why are the Malians so overjoyed at the French intervention?

Milites – depends how you go about it.

The British intervention in Sierra Leone went like clockwork.

there's a school of thought that given it's inherent complexity, foreign policy should not be at the whim of democratic and populist fashions. Same applies to economics

Then it would be at the whim of some private interests (or perhaps it already is?)
I don't believe that some wise men could defend public interests if they are not responsible to public opinion. It never worked.

The liberal imperialists of France, England and USA

I understand Dafydd's point of view (perhaps because I am what Number6 calls an "old Western Leftist") but in this case I don't agree. The opponent is not a people fighting for its independance against a foreign power, it's a (large) group of volunteers who fight for a religion/ideology that the local people do not share (local people are muslims but they don't want this sharia).

Assistance to Malian forces has now morphed into direct combat and so it will probably keep on escalating.

I'm rather anxious to know what will happen soon. Direct combat on this scale has not been done by French troops since a rather long time.

The Sierra Leone opposition went like clockwork because the opposition were mainly hopped up kids and nutters and thugs who sprayed and prayed. The Islamists are a different creature, and I fear will prove that our opponents are constantly evolving. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be wrong and be reading, in the next few days, about the rout of the Tuareg, but they have historically been a tough opponent.

Patrice, I share your concerns, this is a big test for the French, I hope they pass it with flying colours. I'm just worried that the politicians in France are as clueless here about what soldiers, whose budgets have been regularly cut, can actually achieve, in such a situation. Yet again, short-sighted reductions in numbers, might prove bloody and costly, my thoughts and prayers to all those about to be tested.

Sorry if I missed it posted above. As of this morning, aside from Air assets, French have 750 combat boots on the ground (including armored vehicles as noted above).

1700 more troops are being flown in, most likely by US air assets.

Its going to get intersting very quickly, particularly as the french begin to take casualties (aside from those already mentiond herein).

French may feel the need to deploy more troops. If all French civies pull out I would be intersted to see if the French continue a combat deployment.

Heres wishing them luck.

Some good videos and pics showing French troops and armor deployed.
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PS. Without going "Fez", Central African Nations and "AU" need to step up and send troops before the entire of Mali falls. There will definitely be a domino effect in the region if Mali goes (imo).

Problem with AU troops is that they're an extremely mixed bag and in general badly equipped.

They often commit to UN actions as a source of income to supplement badly stretched defence budgets.

Even the most powerful sub Saharan military, the South African Defence force is in crisis with some bases unable to pay their electricity bills and much of the Navy and Air Force effectively grounded due to lack of trained crews and funds for sorties.

I suspect this is why France is sending more and more troops in (now nearly a brigade's worth).

The Islamist militias in Libya took a huge pounding months ago…

They have since, you may recall, had an election and are now working on a Constitution last I heard.

Not every Arab rebel is AQ….

Libyan Islamist militias are still active as are whole heaps of others with varying demands – e.g. Misrata is run as it's own country as is Zintan. Some Gaddafi-loyalists are also still engaged in heavier fighting. Benghazi also isn't exactly listening to the Tripoli government at times either.

Tripoli still has problems with security as well with gunbattles common between various groups fighting for control.

Soldiers and police were killed by Islamists in Benghazi and Gadaffhi loyalists at Bani Walid as recently as mid-December. A clash between militias left several dead at Kufra University in January.

6 days of clashes between rival militias in Sabha left at least 11 dead and many wounded and was only stopped by government intervention on 31/12/13.

There have also been numerous bombings and assasinations of secruity personel.

As for a Constitution, most countries have them and in many cases they're not worth the paper they're written on.

Libya should've been left to it's own devices.

Oh and thanks to fall of Libya, the insurgents in Mali got a whole heap of weapons and equipment.

The French are essentially trying to undo the result of their bombing of Libya.

Great links Uesugi! I often look at the NYTimes website but I did not often look at the others sites.

One small mistake I noticed in one website text: a "RIMa" ("Régiment d'infanterie de Marine") does not belong to the French Navy, but to the French Army. Yes, it's confusing because in French "Marine" means "Navy"… but these "RIMa" are the former "Régiments d'infanterie coloniale", they are not longer called "colonial" because the name had to be changed when France lost its colonies. They are infantry intended to fight overseas, not sailors.

Mr Hollande

"We have an objective. To ensure that when we leave, Mali is safe, has legitimate authorities, an electoral process and there are no more terrorists threatening its territory,"

So years instead of months then!

……And now, up to 40 hostages taken from an Oil refinery.

I have a bad feeling about this……

John

Uesugi, I know TMPs love their buzzwords, and phrases, like 'lead down range' and 'reach out and touch the bad guys' but, does 750 'boots on the ground' mean there are 375 men there?

Also, lets have a little class and not start buying figures for this conflict, just yet, eh?

John

lol, By john. good point. Many of those may in fact be "rear-ech" troopers, but from most accounts ive seen that # appears to indicate ground pounders.

You are welcome Patrice, thanks for the input!

@Thomas Hobbs, true in the past but rcent AU Ugandan and Kenyan troops have had exteremly good success against Islamic Insurgents in Somalia.

Cheers.

U.K.

John 54 wrote:

Uesugi, I know TMPs love their buzzwords, and phrases, like 'lead down range' and 'reach out and touch the bad guys' but, does 750 'boots on the ground' mean there are 375 men there?

No, it means that the 750 blokes currently in-theatre are doubling everywhere, and so have only one boot on the deck at any given time.

I look forward to a count of "arses on the ground" for the logistic tail.

All the best,

John.

I remember, on BBC's Newsnight, during the Falklands, Mr Snow pushing his little models around his sandtable, why can't I?

Seriously, this whole operation is beginning to reek of mission creep. Wonder if the Algerian attack was coordinated with the Mali offensive or just opportunistic?

John D got it right !

Mr Hollande

"We have an objective. To ensure that when we leave, Mali is safe, has legitimate authorities, an electoral process and there are no more terrorists threatening its territory,"

So years instead of months then!

Which Mali had up until the recent military coup, the resulting power vacumn encouraging the Islamicists to move South …

Current insurgency predates the coup.

Part of the reason for the coup was a perception by the military that the government was letting the insurgency get out of hand.

Also initial insurgency was purely sectarian based (i.e. rights for Tuaregs). It then evolved into the current Islamist based insurgency following strengthening of AQIM during Libyan War.

And for a lot of African countries, democracy is just as bad as tin pot dictatoers they replaced.

Conflict spills over into Algeria with 41 foreigners apparently taken hostage.

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Thomas Hobbs – I see your problem.

You think 'milita' = Islamist.

Misratah is many things, but it ain't Islamist.

As for the AU troops they ar eindeed a mixed bag, as are those from ECOWAS. However it has to be sad the AU kicked the Islamists out of Mogadishu… and some militaries such as the Ghanaians are pretty good.

Incidentally, Islamist doesn't always mean anti-Western either….

The Algerian situation smacks of opportunistic hostages for dollars…..any info on Algerian hostage rescue situations? SF abilities etc….?

LPG/Gas plant is a nasty target for anti-terror operation. Most likely it will be mined now, and the process is potentially explosive on its own.
Therefore any rescue operation poses huge risks
Visiting many of chemical/gas/refinery plants I was always surpirsed at very low levels of security there…ok, if you want to get there in a proper way there will be plenty of bureacracy and instructions, but if you want to shoot gasoline storage you can do it without getting close to the fence.

Update: and Algerian military decided to bomb the residential area where the hostages were held. Not surprisingly at the moment we have reports of more civilian casualties than killed terrorists….
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That is really up … sad, very sad … I'm a bit amazed at the Algerian Military's actions. However, like many (not all) militaries in that region, they are not known for efficiency. Or protecting human rights … And stu I agree, islamist does not = anti-West … but there are enough fanatical islamist that the line gets blurred …

Could well be the Algerians are overjoyed at getting a bunch of militant sin one place and are more interested in killing them than rescuing the hostages.

Which of course might, long-term, be good for other Westerners in Algeria.

" I'm a bit amazed at the Algerian Military's actions"

Have to say I agree at the moment but ill reserve judgement til the op is over.

they are not known for efficiency

They are known for refusing to negociate and for attacking …strongly.

Actually Islamist does mean anti-Western, if you take the literal definition, often blurred by people uncomfortable with its implications. So anti, as in challenging the West's economic, religious, cultural and intellectual traditions and institutions aggressively, using either tacit or explicit support for direct action, or ironically, democratic structures, to further their agenda.

You think 'milita' = Islamist.

Misratah is many things, but it ain't Islamist.

Not all – my point was Libya is approaching a failed state with many different factions fighting for their piece of the pie. This includes Islamists but also city militias, Gaddafhi loyalists, criminal gangs and heaven knows who else.

By the way Tuareg insurgents in Mali have only recently become dominated by Islamists thanks to strengthening of Al Qaeda during Libyan Civil War.

One thing the Misratans are is war criminals having ethnically cleansed and effectively destroyed the mainly black Libyan town of Tawergha and commting atrocities in Bani Whalid.

They're a nasty lot and no better than Gaddafhi's thugs.

These are the type of people NATO supported.

They're a nasty lot and no better than Gaddafhi's thugs.

Categorically untrue since they took prisners.

Allegedly Tawergha was where the troops that raped there way across Misratah came from, and were the source of the artillery strikes – hence the retirbution.

If you think Libya is on it sway to becoming a failed state I can only assume you've not bothered informing yourself.

It has manifest problems for sure. But it seems to be working them out – slowly.

Islamist does NOT equal anti-western. For example the bloke who ended up in charge of the Libyan rebels.

Was in Afghanistan training with AQ. Left them the day OBL attacked New York.

Because for him the enemy isn't america but the House of Saud.

Didn't do him any good, the Americans tortured him anyhow…

So the accusations of him helping run terrorist training camps and involved with the 2004 Madrid bombing were just misunderstandings?

As for Libya being a failed state, these people think it certainly was heading that way in 20012, but what do they know? They're only the people who publish the FSI (Failed States Index). Have a read through and see what a secure place it is, Tripoli for your summer holiday Stu?

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Good one Milites!

Allegedly Tawergha was where the troops that raped there way across Misratah came from, and were the source of the artillery strikes – hence the retirbution.

It's still a war crime to destroy a civilian city, regardless of whether some people from that city participated in atrocities.

I doubt the families kicked out of their homes and who were in some instances tortured, robbed and murdered had anything to do with Libyan government atrocities in Misrata anyhow.

They were as innocent victims as the Misratan families who were attacked.

Well what I just saw on CNN, looks like the Algerians went in on their own and contacted no other country. But it is their country and they have dealt with these types before … but this may be a case where they went in too soon, too strongly. However, CNN also said, the op may still be going on … so we'll have to see … But hopefully few if any hostages were or will be killed, but as I said, we'll have to wait and see … However CNN seems to be busy constantly takling about Lance Armstong. I think the current situation in Algeria, Mali, Somali etc. is quite a bit more important. However, a lot CNN's watchers probably don't even now where any of those counties are … anyway … Oh Stu, enlighten me … who'd the Americans torture ? And as far as who NATO supported or supports … well politics often changes to suit the situation. And we appear to be all students of history at some level. Most of the Axis were the Allies' enemy in WWII, but now most if not all are part of NATO or allied by other means. So things change …

@John D Salt: That doesn't count the times when the grunts on the ground are running so hard that neither boot is on the ground!

I'm a bit surprised that the Algerian forces didn't ask for others, but if the news was correct the hostages were being held well away from the actual refinery. Then again, I suppose that most 'Murricans and Europeans have been spoiled by having SEALs, etc around that can go in and rescue hostages. It takes a lot of work and a lot of training to get troops that good, and most African nations don't have enough budget to support that, sadly.

Thomas – I agree it's still a war crime, just pointing out the atrocity didn't come out of a clear blue sky.

Libya is a mess, I agree. But it has a chance to make things better. Which it didn't have beforehand.

As for the Algerians – could be their hand was forced by the terrorists, if reports of attacking a convoy of vehicles are true. No way would they want the hostages spirited away to God knows where.

As for Americans torturing people – they've admitted waterboarding a fair few people.

One French specialist commented yesterday about the special Algerian forces:
"They have a tradition of extermination. They don't negociate with the terrorists. It's far from the French GIGN which has negociators and try to save lives. They (the Algerians) are a direct intervention group. They burst everything".
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The Algerians had difficult times against terrorism in the 1990s, and some of their hostage rescue (?) interventions were severely commented in France, as the "Tibhirine monks" deaths in 1996:
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Yes, I agree Patrice, I'm saying don't negotciate (except as a stalling tactic, if need be ?) and make sure when you attack you have a good enough plan to save all or limit hostage deaths. Of course that is usually easier said than done. And quickly attacking the terrorist may give you a tactical advantage, but possibly at the price of the hostages ? Of course I'm all for externimation/elimination of the terrorists … To paraphrase Gen. Sheridan, "the only good terrorist in a dead terrorist … " link

Lion in the Stars wrote:

@John D Salt: That doesn't count the times when the grunts on the ground are running so hard that neither boot is on the ground!

Oh, always with the "airborne" thing!

All the best,

John.

HooWAAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!