Help support TMP


"Summary of WWII Rules" Topic


61 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the WWII Rules Message Board


Action Log

06 Jan 2013 11:19 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from Flames of War board
  • Removed from WWII Discussion board

2,651 hits since 6 Jan 2013
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Pages: 1 2 

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 8:55 a.m. PST

I've published an informal summary of WWII rules, classified by scale. I've included the publish date, what the rating is on Game Board Geek, number of votes Game Board Geek, whether they have a Yahoo Group, and if so, how many members, and how much activity.

Sometimes the Yahoo Group Membership is a distortion as it covers more than one rules set than just the one posted.Hopefully you might find this useful, especially if you are looking for a particular rule set to try out, and are particular about the scale being used.

If you see any corrections or changes needed, please let me know.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0ArIWFWGyLB-adEZqM2lQMmlYQjJDZFpGVmdDeFctV0E&output=html

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 9:00 a.m. PST

PS. The 'activity' column references how many messages in the previous 12 months as of October 2012. You'll see some instances where the membership is seemingly large, but there is very little recent activity which suggests a fall off in popularity. Warhammer WWII is perhaps the best example of that. Didn't even know Warhammer has a WWII until I stumbled across it one day.

Personal logo vojvoda Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 9:07 a.m. PST

Nice summary. I copied it for future reference.
VR
James Mattes

Personal logo toofatlardies Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 9:21 a.m. PST

Dan

Good work. You are right about Yahoo Groups covering more than one rule set, such as the TooFatLardies group, but how do you want to represent that? We have over 3500 members, but how many of them are there for IABSM or TW&T I have no idea.

Rich

Not for me06 Jan 2013 9:23 a.m. PST

I would suggest more categories in place of your first two (Infantry Skirmish & Armour/Vehicle scale 1:1).
You have IABSM as a skirmish set. While it is a 1:1 set it is at the upper limit with 100+ minis a side and also handles armour quite happily.
So, maybe Skirmish (1-20 minis and/or 1-3 vehicles/side), Platoon (20-40 minis and/or 3-6 vehicles/side), Company (40-100+ minis and/or 6-15 vehicles/side) etc.
As it is all 1:1 sets are lumped together as skirmish and can cover anything from from individual squads to entire battalions on a side.
I hope this is seen as constructive as a central list would be very useful to those new to the period. Just needs a little more information to enable a choice to be made.

thomalley06 Jan 2013 9:30 a.m. PST

I'd say TAC:WWII and Look Sarge are both 1 stand equals a platoon. So you might want them in the same category as Kampfgruppe Commander. Would add "Not Quit Mechanized" in the Large Scale Warfare group.

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 10:04 a.m. PST

Hey Rich,
Yeah, I don't have a clue. Where I knew this to be the case, I posted an * because I knew it would be a distortion otherwise in comparing it to groups that are decicated to one rule set. I guess one thing I could do is just divide it evenly between the number of rulesets the group covers?? Then I could still post a footnote stating that this is a rough estimate, etc.

Personal logo Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 10:05 a.m. PST

Two Hour Yahoo Group has 5500 members, 7782 messages, multiple titles on the group but WW2 is the highest seller accounting for 16%.

Also NUTS is 1:1 scale armor vehicles.

Excellent job!

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 10:11 a.m. PST

Agent Brown,
Thanks for your ideas!

I may not be explaining it well enough. "Armor/Vehicle Scale 1:1" means that one AFV Figure equals one AFV. And while a game like IABSM has one to one armor, they deal with infantry casualties in terms on person killed at a time. To me that means it's skirmish. Far as I know all Skirmish games are 1:1 on armor but not all 1:1 armor games are skirmish.

And I want to avoid classifying according to how many units get fielded. I've seen all the comments over time about how this game is company level and this one is paltoon level, battalion level etc. It's too subjective in my view.

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 10:14 a.m. PST

Ed, in the Nuts game, how do you account for infantry casualties. I have the rules, but I know you can tell me faster than I can look them up.

I'm going to adjust Nuts according to the data that you gave me. Thanks

Timbo W06 Jan 2013 10:16 a.m. PST

Interesting stuff,

here's a list of WW2 wargames rules, many oldies but goodies too-
link

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 10:46 a.m. PST

Timbo, I noticed on that list. I can remember buying that from Brookhurst Hobbies in th early 1970's I think it was. I still have it kicking around here somewhere. But never used that set. I guess I'll add it to the list.

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 10:47 a.m. PST

thomalley, I'll make the change. thanks

kevanG06 Jan 2013 12:02 p.m. PST

I would suggest you remove the yahoo group stuff and just list a URL and the website, since in effect , it could be out of date 2 hours after you complete your lists.

As rich says above, 3500 on the lardies yahoo. yet the list suggests that no discussion exists. Same goes for the RFCM lists for poor bloody infantry (peter pig doesnt have a 2009 version…its just a three year old review)

Also, you have listed yahoo groups for rules which are actually discussion groups for all their rules…clash of arms? Spearhead has modern and ww1 versions on the same list and I suppose that Flames of war falls into that catagory with vietnam

Personally, I would list the rules by the level of the lowest command represented, the size of manouvre unit, and the force size deployed as recommended by the writer.

Last Hussar06 Jan 2013 12:07 p.m. PST

Yeah – IABSM is a company plus support, hardly what is traditionally called a skirmish!

Personal logo Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 12:08 p.m. PST

Infantry casualties are by the figure. Vehicle same way.

UshCha06 Jan 2013 12:15 p.m. PST

You missed us Maneouver Group!

warwell Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 12:24 p.m. PST

You could add Memoir '44, which is essentially a hex-based miniatures game.

Personal logo Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 12:35 p.m. PST

I would suggest you remove the yahoo group stuff and just list a URL and the website, since in effect , it could be out of date 2 hours after you complete your lists.
As rich says above, 3500 on the lardies yahoo. yet the list suggests that no discussion exists. Same goes for the RFCM lists for poor bloody infantry (peter pig doesnt have a 2009 version…its just a three year old review)

There is plenty of NUTS discussion on the THW Yahoo Group. Are all messages WW 2 on those groups with more than one title? Of course not but it does show an active Yahoo Group with available rules support. Just my opinion and not a solicitation.

John Leahy Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 1:49 p.m. PST

Hi, My 'Company Commander' rules are 1:1 Crossfire skirmish scale written in 2001. The Yahoo group has 1290 members with 62 messages last year and 248 the year before.

Thanks,

John

surdu2005 Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 1:58 p.m. PST

Thanks for including Look, Sarge, No Charts: World War II in your list. Though you have them listed as "Unclassified," they should be in your "Armor/Vehicle Scale 1:2 or higher" category. A base equals a platoon of infantry or armor.

Buck Surdu

peterx06 Jan 2013 2:02 p.m. PST

Dan, great work! I think you should add to the Disposable Heroes rule review: Infantry Skirmish/ Armor Skirmish. We have also played all armor games with this rule set, as well as wonderful infantry/armor games.

Personal logo Tango 2 3 Ditto Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 2:07 p.m. PST

Dan, that's excellent! Thank you for your efforts.

I'm not sure about your classification when you use the term "skirmish" as it is, I believe, a term that is not really firmly defined in the same way "level" is not a firm definition either. Are these the definitions from board game geek? I find it hard to see games like Crossfire defined as skirmish where stands are used to represent a low level unit like a squad.

I do like the way you indicate ratios and/or what a unit represents in the notes on some of the sets.

Regardless, it is really a great reference as it is, despite my nitpick above.
--
Tim

Syr Hobbs Wargames Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 2:48 p.m. PST

Very Impressive list but I would stay away from the Yahoo membership/activity. So many forums have many members who are not even active, too hard to keep updated (could change monthly etc) and this list will hold up over the course of time with much better with out it. But hey it is still outstanding

Duane

leesow Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 5:57 p.m. PST

Please include my rules Combat Action Command, published in 2012 by On Military Matters (USA). They are one to one scale same as Flames of War. The Yahoo Group has only been up for about a month. Website combatactioncommand.com

Thanks! Cheers! Lee the author

PS if I missed seeing them on your list my apologies!

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 7:09 p.m. PST

UshCha,
Can you give me a bit more information on your rules. Let me know what scale it is and if you have a forum, yahoo group, etc. Thanks!!

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 7:32 p.m. PST

Ed with Two Hour Wargmames,

If infantry casualties are tracked on a single man basis or if the rules use one figure equals one man, then I classified them as "skirmish".

I would be happy to hear opinions as to what skirmish really represents if it's something other than what I understand it to be. Thanks

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 7:32 p.m. PST

Rich with TooFatLardies,

Since you offer 9 different rule sets, (not counting the latest sci-fi rules) then I simply took the Yahoo group info and divided by 9. I hope that's a general reasonable estimate. If you can tell me what portion of your sales are IABSM and TW&T then I can base the proportion on your sales instead if you like. Let me know; Thanks!

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 7:36 p.m. PST

Last Hussar,
Tell me what is definition of Skirmish then?

Personal logo Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 7:44 p.m. PST

Dan you got NUTS right the first time.

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 7:44 p.m. PST

Kevin G,

Thanks for your input. As regards to Spearhead, I adjusted the Yahoo data based on the praportional split between Modern and WWII.

You can see also see my message above as to how I adjusted for Too Fat Lardies.

As to your other suggestions, perhaps you should come up with a list of your own design that is better suited to your preferences. Naturally everyone has their own ideas as to what is best which is what I put together.

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 7:55 p.m. PST

Warwell,
Yes I'm familiar with Memoir '44 however I've got it classified as a board game, rather than a miniatures game.

Without a doubt it can be adapted to use with Minatures, but if it wasn't designed out the gate as a miniatures rule set, then I avoided including it as it becomes a gray area with difficulties in where to draw the line (e.g. Squad Leader)

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 8:02 p.m. PST

John Leahy,
I've updated the list to include Company Commander. Will update the link later tonight. Thanks

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 8:06 p.m. PST

LeeSow,

Thanks Much, Updated the list with your information on Combat Action Commander. Uploading it shortly. Thanks

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 8:11 p.m. PST

Ditto The Abdominal Snowman,

I defined skirmish based on my own understanding that has cmoe over time from reading TMP. I'm happy to be corrected if someone has a definitive explanation.

Really I think it was born out of my own historical preference which was to play what I call Armor Skirmish: One tank is one tank and infantry is represented at squad/troop level. Although lately my 'historical preference' has adjusted include using IABSM for some of my up and coming games.

DanLewisTN Inactive Member06 Jan 2013 8:13 p.m. PST

peterx,

I've got two different "Disposable Heroes" listed.

Personal logo jdginaz Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 10:05 p.m. PST

IABSM is not a skirmish rules set. Is is played at the same level as FoW and Mein panzer. Yes the squads are represented at 1 to 1 but the squad is treated as a single entity i.e. the whole squad moves/shoots as one unit not individually as in a skirmish game. TW&T are TFL's skirmish rules.

Also your adjusting of the yahoo groups memberships is arbitrary and inaccurate at best. you should simply note that they support more than one set of rules

Personal logo War Panda Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2013 10:45 p.m. PST

DanLewisTN great work and thanks for this generous show of initiative…its down as a fav

Personal logo toofatlardies Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Jan 2013 12:45 a.m. PST

Dan

The problem we have with just dividing the number by x is that the vast majority of our customers buy multiple sets of our rules. This is pretty typical of guys like Ed at THW and Martin at Peter Pig with his RFCM range.

As jdginaz suggests it may be easier and more representative for us and guys like Ed at THW to just list the numbers and put a star (or something) to note that these are groups which deal with a range of products.

However you handle it I wish you luck, and thank you for your efforts.

Some Chicken07 Jan 2013 3:26 a.m. PST

Neither of the two lists (Dan's and Timbo's) mentions Overlord, which must be the most overlooked WW2 rule set of all time. As the title suggests, the focus is on the battle for Normandy, while the scale is similar to IABSM, i.e 1:1 with company level forces.

Overlord may be difficult to get hold of now (I got mine by mail to the UK from Brookhurst 3 or 4 years ago and have never seen it sold at a show) but it contains some really interesting ideas and rules mechanics which I've incorporated in other games (breaching bocage and off-table small arms fire to name but two).

link

Personal logo Chalfant Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Jan 2013 5:30 a.m. PST

Howdie.

Disposable Heroes: Point Blank, would also be a skirmish level game. Both it and "standard" DH/C7B are 1 vehicle = 1 vehicle, 1 infantry model = 1 infantry… but in Point Blank the models are organized as individuals. For regular DH/C7B the models are organized into teams and sections (that take casualties 1 model at a time, fire based on what individual models have, etc).

Hope that helps classify the game :)

Chalfant

kevanG07 Jan 2013 6:08 a.m. PST

Rich wrote. "The problem we have with just dividing the number by x is that the vast majority of our customers buy multiple sets of our rules."

I think I own six rulesets from you, not counting revised versions.

Yeah, Its just stupid that as a member of multiple yahoo groups for those rules, I count as a full 1 for some and a 1/17th for others I actually play!

DanLewisTN Inactive Member07 Jan 2013 6:24 a.m. PST

Hey Rich,
Yeah I can see how the membership number doesn't come out right when presented in that light. However it would still be reasonable to divide up messages according to how many rule sets there are. But I think your suggestion is appropriate and I'll change it accordingly.

Kevin, thanks again for your precious input. I'll try not to be so stupid in the future.

DanLewisTN Inactive Member07 Jan 2013 6:25 a.m. PST

Some Chicken,
Don't know how I missed Overlord since I also have a copy of those rules. I've added them in. Thanks for catching that.

DanLewisTN Inactive Member07 Jan 2013 7:20 a.m. PST

link

This new link encompasses the most recent changes and suggestion. I've added a new column which shows if multiple rule sets are covered by the Yahoo group, and updated those groups to include the full membership and message content, with a footnote explaining that multiple rule issue.

I have 28 of the rule sets listed. Been buying them since 1970 and never toss them.

DanLewisTN Inactive Member07 Jan 2013 7:21 a.m. PST

Is there way I can update the original link that I posted?? Because it shows a blank sheet now.

COM 2D07 Jan 2013 9:10 a.m. PST

Looking at what I own compared to the list, I noticed Victory Decision WWII and Operation Squad are missing. Both are infantry skirmish games with individually tracked casualties. Flying Lead and Brink of Battle also do WWII infantry skirmish, but they aren't specific to just WWII, so I'm not sure if you'd want to include them.

martin goddard Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Jan 2013 1:30 p.m. PST

Wow! well done peter Pig.
Thanks Dan!

Sgt Steiner07 Jan 2013 2:49 p.m. PST

What is really scary is just how many of these sets I have on shelves !!!!!!!!

DanLewisTN Inactive Member07 Jan 2013 3:26 p.m. PST

yeah me too

Pages: 1 2