"How is Napoleon perceived/taught about in France?" Topic

Are there any Frenchmen here (Tango?) who can comment on this?

As a foreigner what I hear most about is the glory he brought to France. There was obviously a dark side to this, namely practically 15 years of continuous war.

I'm not asking for a professional historian's view. Instead, I'm curious about what the average Frenchman of the modern era thinks.

Thanks.

The average Frenchman does not hold Napoleon in high esteem. They focus more on the butcher's bill than any nebulous glory, which as the saying goes, is fleeting.

Source?

Source? An average Frenchman obviously:

(Though this one is probably more concerned with l'addition from le boulanger than le boucher)

I'm an history teacher in a well known, high regarded high school in Paris. Napoleon is a controversial character nowadays in France.
White legend: Napoleon was a genius in everything he undertook. He gave France a solid money, ended the Revolution's disorders, his Code Civil is still in use today, founded a modern and efficient educational system. Of course a military genius, always on a defensive stance against the perfidous Albion's plot. He was a visionary and in away, founded the first modern European Union.
Black legend: Napoleon, a typical Corsican clansman, didn't understood the Revolution and killed its ideal with the Brumaire Coup. A overcentralist politician, he's one reason to explain France's nowadays weaknesses. A violent racist, he instituted concentration camps in French Antillas after the first negroes slaves' emancipation. A good general, but bloodthisty, responsible for the killing of 1 million Frenchmen.
Maistream opinion: Napoleon who?
I've heard all the answers given above. In school, Napoleon's military career is not entirely teached: 1796 (general's Bonaparte rising), Austerlitz, the Spanish ulcer, 1812 (the Empire's doom), and Waterloo. The three campaigns are just signalled, without mentioning a decisive battle.
Hope it helps.

the picture is probably a venitian gondolier former red beret paratrooper

of course Napoleon is still popular for the people, see the number of reviews about him in the french kiosks, even today with the crisis I see that there is a new review launched named "Spécial Napoléon", the third raised in few months, even the traditionnal french newspapers have done special issues about Napoléon, like Le Figaro and others

and about the forgotten Mr Ribbe, in the french TV you can see more Tulard Lentz Sokolov than people explaining some nebulous theory about a black extermination

Loïc

When I live in france I tried to ask my friends and acquaintances about Napoleon and his Era.
Well, I was only one guy in a huge country, so maybe my knowledge is not very important, but I can said that the results were:

a) 90% had not opinion. They don't care. They know about Napoleon of course, but only a little of his campaigns (victories). At least, they had the Austerlitz station (smile) and the Arc de Triomphe (smile).
I remember their faces when I ask about him.
Mostly zombie ones. Who?. Ah!. Oui, Napoleon the warrior who lost in Russia… (?).

I had to admit that the only thing that they "rescue" for sure is that Napoleon was against the English (big smile).

b) 8% Knows about him, his campaigns, etc. They don't forget he lost the war because his ambitions. They respect him as a superb tactic and General, but not as a good "Emperor". He made France great, but at the end he lost. His case is quite similar to Vercingetorix (another one I tried to lern what they think about him).
Ie respect, but not a great heroe.

c) 2%. They know A LOT, and they are really fan of him.
Nearly with the intensity of a religion.

But I repeat, it was only My HUMBLE EXPERIENCIE for some years in France, I'm not french, I'm Argentine.

d) If I had to choose, I think that people of other countries like more Napoleon outside France than in France itself.

Hope it's helps mon ami.

Amicalement
Armand

Here's a question…

Why is Salamanca on the Arc de Triumphe?

I would guess it is pretty similar to what most Americans know about their military leaders from anything beyond a hundred years ago, which is almost nil.

My students in art appreciation can barely place the following periods in order, even after I teach them.

Egyptian, Roman, medieval.

No lie, it scares the hell out of me.

I recall an article in the Sunday Times by a West Point instructor, that for most of his cadets, the Vietnam war was around the same time as the Peloponnesian War.

Some years back I asked a semi-educated young man who we (the USA) allied with and fought against in WWII. Easy, he said, we allied with the Germans against the Russians.

Who won the French and Indian war?

The Continental Congress.

Who won the Hundred Years War or the War of the Spanish Succession?

Bonsoir,

I am also a history teacher in a well known, high regarded high school in Paris. My dear colleague is completely right most of the french Jean Dupont – your John Doe- don't care about Napoleon. White and black legend are only studied if you go to social studies universities,(Jean Tulard was my professor) . In junior high and Middle high curriculum, you just have to spend less than two hours on Nappy's deed.
According some leftist and tiny influent and self proclaimed experts groups popular with the medias, the black legend is that Napoleon was an esclavagist with concentration camp so and so…
In 2005 french government has sent our only Aircraft Carrier to Trafalgar's anniversary naval parade, and was not present to the Austerlitz commemorative show in Paris.

Most of the people living in Paris don't have a clue about the fact that a lot of streets has received their name from famous or not so famous people from the napoleonic time. I live near Pelleport Street which is not very far from Dupont (the one from Baylen) tiny street.

It is weird enough that so many of anglosaxon people seems to be napoleon's fan.

All the best for the coming year to all of ou and your relatives.

Gboue

It would have been an amazing spectacle to see all an aircraft carrier floating on the waters of the RIVER Seine.

It would have been an amazing spectacle to see all an aircraft carrier floating on the waters of the RIVER Seine.

Well we were told we WOULD get our 5,000 tonne Type 23 ASW Frigate down the Caen CANAL and moor up next to the Pegasus bridge just outside of Caen for the rededication ceremony of that famous bridge for the D-Day 60 commemoration….and we did….

Getting down there was easy compared to returning, astern, with cider, red wine and calavdos hangovers….

For what its worth, my mother was French, and brought me up on tales of English dastardly plots and how they sent Napoleon in exile to a tiny windswept rock in the middle of the South Atlantic….

Then a few years ago, long after my dear mother had passed away, my ship called in for a port visit to St Helena – a beautiful sub tropical island, the best feature of which is Longwood House, Napoleon's stately home, surrounded by the extensive gardens which he designed. I could go an exile like that any day….

I am amazed that two Frenchmen indicated that their high schools were highly regarded. I cannot think of a single one in the US that would be characterized as such, in my mind.

Dale

It serves as any consolation many Spaniards teens think that Hernan Cortes was a "some guy that conquered some place in India and that the Queen Isabel II hated his guts and ordered him to be executed by firing squad"… I have seen that answer in a test with my own eyes!

To Dale Hurtt
"I am amazed that two Frenchmen indicated that their high schools were highly regarded."

Highly regarded compared to french standards, I had the opportunity to visit and teach a few lessons in a middle high close to Albany, NY.
The students were 11th graders and had some essay to write about the late 18th century changes in the world and I was quite surprised to see that what was expected by the regular teacher implementing the board of education rules was looking like what we expect from an 8th grader in France.At that time, I was teaching in a poor suburban area packed with illiterate migrants.

But I am sure that you also have "highly regarded" schools across the pound.

Gboue

Merci bien pour vos reponses.

Bonne nouvelle annee a vous et aux votres aussi!

This is the kind of subject laid as a trap to get me in the Doghouse… Hmmm… I smoked it. Didn't I just…

Eric

Wait, I thought it was just us insular Americans who were ignorant of our history. To be brutally honest, a lack of history knowledge is not the end of a society. I teach history and I have a passion for it, and I find when taught with passion you can really turn people on to it. But not knowing history is not necessarily indicative of stupidity or lack of civics…to some people it's just not relevant. I've found my students can care, but you have to give them a reason to care. Too many teachers forget that. I personally prefer the "history is full of whacky hijinks, crazy people, funny stuff, and high drama" rather than any kind of idea of creating better citizen or better future or any of that idealistic stuff. Show them that it's interesting for it's own sake and you'd be surprised at how interested you can get them, even if it is only for the semester :)

"I am amazed that two Frenchmen indicated that their high schools were highly regarded. I cannot think of a single one in the US that would be characterized as such, in my mind."

Dale, I have to correct this. In NYC, we have some very highly regarded public high schools. For general liberal arts, Stuyvesant, for science Bronx Science, for tech geeks (like me) Brooklyn Technical, for art, dance, etc, Performing Arts (the Fame school). Most years when the Westinghouse science awards are given out a disproportionate number go NYC public high school kids.

Are all of our well over 1,000 public schools like this? Unfortunately no. Do we have a number that are walking disasters, providing little or no education and dangerous to boot? Oh yes. But we have grenadier companies, line companies and bashi bazooks all.

I wrote "highly regarded", in order to not appear as an arrogant teacher despising his countryfellowmen, supposed to be all ignorant idiots, and to indicate on what position i gave my opinion.
I'm lucky, to be in contact with well educated and often bright young girls and boys, far from the clichés associated with young people. Some of them are going to Mr Boué's high school and one of them told me recently how bright were his lectures.
To come back to the topic, Napoleon's perception by nowadays Frenchmen has mainly 2 problems:
-History is more and more invaded by politics. Does Napoleon belong to our right or left wing? It leads of course to an oversimplistic and manicheist view of the great man (or fascist devil!).
- The way Napoleon and his time is taught in school. I have only a few hours to teach the 1789-1815 period and must not speak about the whole period,but choose a few themes. I selected a theme called "Revolution, the Empire and warfare" and my pupils will work on 3 battles, Valmy for sure, the 2nd will be Rivoli or Austerlitz , Borodino, Leipzig or Waterloo for the third in less than 5 hours! I will "cheat" with an additional analysis of Goya's Dos & Tres de Mayo paintings during their Art history lessons. In this condition, few of my pupils will know what exactly happened at Trafalgar, Wagram, Salamenca, Eylau. The same applies to their parents.

Kids do not understand why they need to learn about the past. Many of them feel that it is a waste of their time. My two youngest are adamant on their total despice for History; only the eldest like to study History, and that because he finds it entertaining. To be honest, I am not surprised. After all, the way that History is taught in schools is boring even for me, and I am a History Geek!

I suspect children around the world don't know or care very much about their history. Certainly in the US most have only the sketchiest knowledge of George Washington other than he was the first president and a slave holder. Indeed, I would be surprised were Wellington, who was also PM, is very much known to the average Brit other than he won at Waterloo.

This is a shame. For knowledge of what went before, institutional memory, can assist free people in making political decisions by placing current events in context.

Bob Coggins

Most kids in Britain only know the word Wellington in connection with a boot…..

…or a delicious meat and pastry dish.

DM

or 'that bloke with the road cone on his head'

link

Wealthy suburbs in the US, such as the one I live in in CT USA have extremly good high schools, both public, and especially private. The quality often declines significantly in urban areas, with exceptions that prove the rule.

le Grande Quartier General,

That's terribly old fashioned. In Baltimore where I live few students can read or write. They can however do math and fractions. For instance they all know the value of a kilo of smack, divided by 4.

Bob Coggins

"History is a set of lies agreed upon."
― Napoleon Bonaparte

so sayeth the man.

Gboue and Vincent: Perhaps the problem is the term "highly regarded".

Regard: Attention to or concern for something.

I was not saying that there were not high schools of quality, only that most American don't consider high schools worthy of their attention. Yes, NYC may be a localized exception, but it *is* an exception, not the rule.

Ask the majority of Americans to name a high school in the US, not in their city/county. Nor one that their high school football team plays against either.

Certainly from a national viewpoint, specific high schools do not receive "regard" from US citizens. We might care locally, but nationally? I don't think we have *nationally* highly regarded high schools in the US. Colleges and Universities, yes.

Dale

Brilliant thread Bede.

It's an interesting topic and thanks to the French teachers who posted. I think the same questions could be asked about historical figures in most countries, particularly the UK and US. I think the educational needs of the modern world are totally different than the past. My kids are all grown up but I recently asked my 20 year old daughter (the youngest) what she knew about Winston Churchill and Oliver Cromwell. She is grammar school educated. She had heard of Churchill but couldn't recall any details, but didn't know anything about Cromwell. Mind you she could conduct 50 simultaneous conversations on Facebook and fiddle with an Iphone/pad etc all day, which I can't!

Many of the private preperatory high schools in the Northeast US are indeed nationally regarded, and admission is quite competitive. My own had students from all over the US and many other countries as well.

I find that teaching history as the study of the nature and tendancy of humans, both at an individual,societal, and geo-political level provides a great deal of relevancy for kids today, and I would think it very important for anyone in a future position of leadership to be well studied in this field. In this sense it must be an 'education need' for the youth of any country that wishes to be competitive in the world. It certainly teaches that the world will be competitive.