"Abuse on Mantic Forums. Is This Normal?" Topic

So after getting angry at Mantic for their disingenuous emails about the Dreadball Kickstarter, I vent some on their forum in a thread I did not start that revolved about when do we get our games. I'm angry that local guys have copies and I don't, they didn't bother aiding Mantic and I did. Okay, it wasn't exactly charity, but Mantic did ask for help and I helped because I wanted the game to go over big. Here I still sit with no game. I've heard all the arguments of why Mantic chose to send out product to retailers instead of their Kickstarter pledges. All I see are people playing the game and giving me grief about having done the crazy act of backing Mantic when they needed it. These guys didn't do squat and are already painting and playing. So I vented. And was quickly called names. I debated with them for a bit, but grew tired, and this isn't my first rodeo. I know the internet bullies are always waiting to start calling names. I said my peace and left. Even now they are calling me out for "whinging" and "sour grapes".
Is this all we can expect these days? Make a statement that isn't popular and get called names? Question a company for disregarding the people that made it's success possible and get attacked by loyalist fanboys? To me it looks like a holiday money grab. After all, they have my money. Why bother keeping me happy?
I wanted to like Dreadball, and I wanted to like going to a forum for it. Yet another reason Dreadball is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

I think the old timers here would not be surprised that I am of the opinion that this is, indeed, an example of the finest Internet civility.

One of the lawyers can probably clarify whether Mantic is in actual breach of contract — which is what a Kickstarter pledge is. (And whether Kickstarter cares.)

I meant this not to be just about the Mantic forums. There are plenty more forums that you can't whisper a word against the powers above or be attacked by eager fans. Not enforcment from the company, just the fans who can't handle the idea of a different point of view. Or in my case, an angry response to being shafted. It bothers me that the anonymity of the internet turns any debate into name-calling and cries of "heretic"! GUess I'll stick here on TMP.

Meiczslaw, Yeah I've got stories of terrible flame wars on Reaper and Pinnacle forums that make this look like Driving Miss Daisy. But, damn it, it bothers me. The game's not even in my hands and I'm angry. I usually have to lose a game a few times to get this worked up!
Now someone is saying I was doing the name-calling. Swell. But I won't be baited back in. That's the dance that never ends.

Yea… Bad form from Mantic (KSers should have been first…) and you have the right to disagree with them without being heckeled.
I have also been 'burnt' on the Peginc forums.

I haven't got mine either yet… It does kinda leaves a bad taste…

Makes me hesitant to back projects from Mantic again.
Not that they will lose sleep over one sale.

My assault from the Pinnacle fanboys was the stuff of legends. I kid you not, when it was over, their admin took a snarky comment about my obvious inability to understand how their shiny new Savage Worlds system worked and put it in his world-building article. They came at me so hard my mother had bruises. And I never picked up that game again, so that showed them, right?
Too bad this was my first Kickstarter. I won't be funding another one soon.

If I were you guys, I would be making noise with Kickstarter. It seems like Mantic has taken your money to fund to someone else's toys. This kind of bait and switch could give a black eye to Kickstarter too. They just might take action on your behalf.

Or you could just sit here and whine.

Dang, Dale, are those my only two options? Since when is choosing not to drag Mantic into court considered whining? I don't think they are guilty of a crime other than having a hostile forum. Maybe I think pointing out the hostility on certain game forums is the way to make it change? I doubt these same people telling me to stop whining about feeling ripped off would do it to my face. Or maybe I'm tilting at windmills by trying to get the internet to be polite, discuss things, debate, and not be so bloody quick to light the fires on a topic.
And I also don't consider it whining to tell people when I've been mistreated by a company. I appreciate getting a warning and thought you might to.

I'm not quite up on how Kickstarter works. Have you paid someone money and not received anything? Or just promised to pay money?

If the former, it is fraud IMO.

If the later, well you can be annoyed, but then not have anything to do with them form now on.

Cheers,
JohnG

Under contract law, they are require to give these to investors first, I believe. They should have had an estimated time table. I would not want to be in their shoes. Frankly a call and a letter from a lawyer should speed things along.
Since they are U.K. based, it would be best to start there. If you are in the United States, then this could be considered wire fraud. Also, if the method of shipment was to be U.K. Postal service to U.S. Postal Service, you have a mail fraud case on them as well.

Regarding not involving a lawyer; why not? This is a case where one is needed. Regarding going to court, I would say the ball is in their court once a lawyer contacts them. Also, don't you have recourse through either a credit card company or Paypal? I know you want the figures but if enough people raise a stink, they will be more than obliged to send you and others figures…

I would start with a phone call. Next step is registered letter. Third step is consult a lawyer. Trust me, they don't want to mess with civil courts and international courts. I thought the U.K. had some really stringent rules regarding ordering from a retailer?

Unfortunately the dreadball forum is not isolated. I could blame internet anominity, but the bad manners have seeped into the real world.
I was in uniform at a coffee shop getting a cuppa for myself and a smoothie for my youngest daughter. A young fellow, with dreadlocks and a Che Guerra T-shirt, told my little girl that I was going overseas to kill muslem women and children. I kept my rage in check through disipline, or awareness of my wee one, or the suspiscion that my violent retort would be the next big youtube hit.
Through the many converations this generated with all four of my kids, I came to the conclusion that polite debate is mostly gone. People are more concerned with" could say" than "should say". I try to avoid the trolls on the net and in the world at large, cuz words won't break bones but combatives will!

You are entitled to a proper accounting for your $$…. and some joker owes me a coffee and smoothie paid for and not received!

Good advice from ancientsgamer. As pledger did you pay in advance some money to fund the project or just promised to buy the items?

Sadly the problem with kickstarter -

I have pledged backing for a number of products with "kickstarter" exclusives…

In some cases everyone got the "exclusive" item,

Some cases it was available/ will be available later…

In some cases the game was in my local store over three weeks before my "priority" copy came through my letter box – (* however 2 weeks of that was customs fault in UK who did not send me a letter saying it was in their bonded warehouse and I could pay the princely sum of 22 pounds to have a game delivered that I had paid $35 USD to Kickstart and get my name in the rulebook, that I could have bought for £31.00 GBP from my local game store (!)!

I still like Kickstarter – my experiences have not put me off, but I still wish businesses would play fair, put a delivery date expectation that was reasonable and also put backers first – It appalls me when my friends can be playing with something before I can.

Some good advice from Dom, before he deleted it.

I think warwick is right, his complaint is really about the rabid
forum fanboys, the firum mods should have stepped on it as soon
as it happened, it leaves a bad taste that the forum mods are the
Company that has sent orders to shops first rather than to their
backers.

I hope your game arrives soon warwick,

Regards

Jim

> Under contract law, they are require to give these to investors first, I believe.

Problem is, Kickstarter is not listed as an investment, it is called pledging. In a few years I'm sure the law regarding kickstarting will be hammered out (with cases just like this one, if not this exact one, leading the way)

I once went onto the Frothers forum after googling for size comparison between two lines of miniatures.

A poster asked if the two lines are compatible size-wise, and the first response he got was something like:

Why don't you just buy them and see for yourself, you cheap *deleted*?

I stay away from that forum now.

It's pretty obvious what the main motivation was: Greed. They had all the Kickstarter's money, now to grab all the Xmas sales as well.

Some good advice from Dom, before he deleted it.

Thanks; I deleted as I thought it might just fan the flames, but on reflection I guess it's worth risking a repost:

Good advice from ancientsgamer.

Really? Seems to be based on an interesting mix of misapprehensions and assumptions. Given that there's no indication that the goods won't be delivered (at issue is that retailers were prioritised over KS pledgers) you can throw his "this would be considered wire fraud" out of the window for starters. Then there's "They should have had an estimated time table." – They do; it's "December 2012" which we're, umm, just over half way through.

Next there's "I thought the U.K. had some really stringent rules regarding ordering from a retailer?" Yes it does, and they don't apply, since a Kickstarter isn't "ordering from a retailer"; you're pledging *venture capital* in return for which the company commits to supply goods at a later date. Legally that's not the same thing – you have a contract under civil law, but it's not a retail transaction – you're a stakeholder, not a customer. (I must admit this was something I didn't grasp myself when KS was new, but makes perfect sense when you think about it; when you get involved the product doesn't actually exist, so it can't be a regular transaction – you're investing, not buying.)

Then there's the timescale issue; unless I've missed something very big here, there's absolutely no question of the goods not being delivered; at issue is simply the order in which customers have been served. Do you seriously think phone call, then registered letter, then chatting to a lawyer, then filing papers (all over the Christmas period too) will happen quicker than the issue resolves itself anyway? When they're clearly shipping them as we type, since every day people are posting "mine arrived today"…?

link

Indeed having had a quick search, they posted this on Friday:
link
So it's *already in the post*, touch wood. So getting a lawyer would speed things up by…? That would be a fun dialogue:
"We demand you ship our client's stuff."
"We already have."
"Oh…."

Don't get me wrong, it seems like lousy service, but the idea that lawyering up is the way forward is, let's be kind here, misguided at best, maybe hilarious at a pinch. I appreciate it must be frustrating, and if I was signed up I'd definitely be peeved too; having funded the project I would *expect* to be front of the queue for the finished product, just like the OP, but at the end of the day we're talking about "having to wait for our toys" – a little sense of perspective might help.

Dom, ducking for cover…. ;-)

@ Warwick13 – I'm sorry you feel the way you do. We understand the passion with which you want your pledge rewards (A couple of us here at Mantic have pledged on Sedition Wars and Reaper!) and that passion is shared by those on the forum – and they'll express their beliefs as strongly as anyone else.

I do hope that you'll come back.

Your copy, like every other kickstarter, is in the post and will be with you shortly. Sadly we can't account for the Christmas rush, but every copy was posted before the final recommended shipping deadlines – as we committed to during the kickstarter, you'll receive it in December before Christmas.

My wife has a shop – not quite the same thing but -

1) If you alienate your customers, you might as well shut the doors.

2) Bad service ALWAYS gets more advertising than good.

Having said that, perhaps wargaming is different. Some (percieved) big companies THRIVE on overpriced, poor quality goods with poor service.

Yet so called small companies, who have a large range of excellent quality products and superb customer service are bombarded with excellent service notifications. They get my money.

I wanted to buy from one of the big companies, but I got no response to a simple query – another custome loss.

> Having said that, perhaps wargaming is different. Some (percieved) big companies THRIVE on overpriced, poor quality goods with poor service.

Nope, no different then any other line of business.

"All I see are people playing the game and giving me grief about having done the crazy act of backing Mantic when they needed it. These guys didn't do squat and are already painting and playing. So I vented. "

If I understand correctly: people you know in real life bought the game before yours arrived and we're having a bit of fun at your expense? Then you go on the Mantic forum and "vent"…
I'll be looking on the forum for that thread, I'm curious what you wrote, but given your first post here, hmmmm…

Has anyone actually viewed the topic? I think the initial responses are very civil. I think your 'local' friends are way more abusive than them.

Regarding Mantic, Dreadball shipped to them piece meal, not prepacked. Supporter get stuff by December, which will last for about 13 more days.

If you are upset,and want too vent I say "Why Not" Go on every miniature game forum and act civil. Explain why investing in Mantic is a bad idea, and why people should not invest in their projects in the future.

Give Mantic as much bad press as possible.

If their game "sucks eggs" write as many bad reviews on every site you can. You don't need to do this on their own forums, your posts can be easily deleted.

Also write to all the gaming podcast's, and video review podcasts on youtube.

Let people know how bad Mantic is, but act civil while you do it.

IMHO Dreadball is a Blood Bowl rip off.

Topic was meant to be more about why forums can be nasty and unpleasant places. I think we all have had the experience of asking a question and getting back a rude reply. I believe it is the company's responsibility to keep a company forum civil and welcoming to all players, not just the vocal fans who never find fault in their favorite system/company/era/genre/scale, etc.
I don't think Mantic is guilty of any crime. I feel they showed Kickstarter pledgers disrespect not only in letting average customers have the game but also in how they communicated with us about it. The tone boils down to "You're getting extra stuff so you need to shut up about it!" Maybe I'm a bit screwed on this, and I do have the flu making me sick, but I view Kickstarter projects as more than a pre-order or a way to get free prizes. Without the pledgers, Dreadball would not exists. Mantic went out of their way to ask for help and I responded. Is it so crazy to expect a little respect? I'm not upset the game isn't in my hands. I'm upset it is in the hands of people that didn't sell a guitar to make it a reality.

And your opinion is no doubt based on possibly owning the game or at least having played many games of Dreadball?

I believe it is the company's responsibility to keep a company forum civil and welcoming to all players,

Other than large scale and draconian censorship, I'm not sure how you'd propose they actually do this though? Forums are full of people posting what they think; some people are great, some are jerks, that's just how people are. If you're *that* sensitive to it, then going onto a company's forum to "vent" your "anger" (your words, from your initial post) is unwise at best – *of course* you're going to get flak – you're going to a forum populated by fans of the company / game, and saying they're rubbish – regardless of how much of a point you may or may not have, it's not rocket science to expect a less than welcoming response from at least some people.

(Heck, if you think wargames forums are bad, try the comments section on the average Youtube video….)

before anyone gets the wrong idea, I do not mind the kickstarter model, I want kick starter pledges to be right and to understand that things can massively go wrong.

on another forum, there are some kickstarter backers moaning about games, that they expect will never be delivered.

I did not back dreadball as I have other games that I would sooner play! I think worse than this there is another issue .

ebaying of kickstarter exclusives at over inflated prices and price gouging.

you can never stop it, but my feeling is that customers could resist the cult of the new a little and take advantage of the cooling down of hype.

I have backed.

Ogre – great game. still awaiting delivery.
zombiecide – fantastic miniatures.
Alabaster – awaiting delivery
eminent domain. brilliant game. late, and kickstarter exclusives did not seem that exclusive.
up front- brilliant board game in a fantastic new version, kickstarter still running! (worth a look if you want to play a board game card game that is a bit like squad leader.
reaper miniatures – seems an amazing deal and hopefully will be great for my painter who will have the pleasure of painting parts of it.
elite dangerous. a computer game – still running – also looks brilliant and hopefully will still make its funding goal.
traveller version five – I loved the original little black books, so I could not resist.

So no problems with kickstarter.

Warwick13, This comment is not meant as an attack against you but I get the feeling that is the way you will see it.

I get the impression from your posts that this is not the first time you feel as if you have been abused on a forum. I would agree with Dom and you that there are a lot of jerks out there but if you "vent" on a forum you may as well expect some negative reactions. Perhaps part of the problem is the way you write your posts or the way you percieve the responses?

Hey everyone, here's the abuse he's talking about:

link

show me any abuse other than Warwick's own posts.
(in fact he calls people "tools", "slobs" and "blowhards")
(edit: I actually did name-call, somewhat, I said the local players who were ridiculing him are "awful")

But, for those who are taking Warwick's post at face value, well… here are the facts:

Mantic had contractual obligations to distributors and to it's Kickstarter backers to deliver to them for December.

THEY DID.

They shipped to distributors and started shipping to KS backers on Nov 30. They finished shipping over 3,000 KS copies last week.

Now, personally, I got mine last week and they shipped from the UK to the USA through customs, etc.

Dom, you're probably right. I wouldn't walk into a bar of football fans and start shouting how much I hate the game. Or is that a bad analogy? You get my drift. Or rather, I get yours. However, I didn't start that thread. Someone else did and I just posted. No excuse, I guess. It is hard not to go back and defend myself now that I can see better ways to word my issues. It's better to walk away.
Allen, no worries. I don't get attacked much and that's what made this stand out. I don't frequent forums where an unpopular opinion is blood in the water. I wasn't the only one complaining, but I'm being painted as the villain. Well, I'm off to twist the ends of my mustache and tie a damsel to a train track.

Oh hey, Hi Judge. Nice to see you showed up with THE FACTS. Sadly, they aren't. The "local slobs" are my buddies and I do believe I can call them anything I want, and as far as you know that may even be their names. And they are quite aware of this thread and the one on Mantic, so I'm not even calling them names behind their backs. And the "tools" and "blowhards" is a quote from another friend talking once again about our cadre of local gaming guys, who are aware. Good grief, you should hear the stuff we call each other when the dice are rolling! So, no, in FACT, I did not call you or Mantic or Hellebore any name. But thanks for coming here and clearing that up for people. Added loads to my civility in forums topic.

I'm glad I did clear that up, because you state namecalling and abuse on the Mantic forums yet the only one calling anyone names is you. Regardless if it's your buddies or not.

you said:
"And was quickly called names. I debated with them for a bit, but grew tired, and this isn't my first rodeo."

None of which was true. You came in red-faced and yelling. Everyone was very calm, except for you.

"Nice to see you showed up with THE FACTS. Sadly, they aren't."

Yeah, yeah they are.

What I said are the facts:
"Mantic had contractual obligations to distributors and to it's Kickstarter backers to deliver to them for December."

100% true.

Interestingly, Warwick joined the Mantic forums, opened up both barrels in a forum and started namecalling and yelling at people, and then disappeared. Now, I'm new to the internet, having only been using it since 1993 or so, but I'm fairly sure that's what we call a "troll".

Funnily enough I just found this article on CNN (I only read the title so far, no idea if it is any match to what we are discussing….)

link

Interestingly, Mantic is one of the very very few companies whose Kickstarters have:

1. shipped on time (Dreadball)
2. shipped early (Kings of War)

I joined the Mantic forum to discuss Dreadball, which I did for several days. I want to like the game, you see.
And I haven't "disappeared". I just won't be posting on that topic. It's a dead topic that someone else started and someone else will finish. No sense trying to have a debate about it. This is a topic I started – about internet civility on forums – so I'll defend it.
No, I am not a troll. Funny how you came here to insist I am name-calling and end by calling me a name.
Why is it so hard to admit I might have a legitimate beef with Mantic over their decision to reward non-pledging players over the people who helped them make the game possible?

For all the "bad press" Mantic is getting from certain sources, here's two more facts that you can consider:

- Mantic delayed the retail launch TO December in order to send Kickstarter backers stuff first. The unassembled copies of Dreadball missing components arriving from China forced them to ship at the same time, as they had a deadline with the distributors for the retail copies and had to hand assemble ten thousand copies of Dreadball as quickly as possible.

- Mantic had hundreds and hundreds of pledges for Dreadball to ship in January (go check the Kickstarter, they had limited what they thought they could deliver in December, so limited the December delivery pledges). Mantic has shipped every single pledge, so the January backers have gotten/are getting it a month early.

So… in fact, Dreadball is arriving on time, and in fact, EARLY – for HUNDREDS of people.

"No, I am not a troll. Funny how you came here to insist I am name-calling and end by calling me a name."

I'm not calling you a name, I said "[you] joined the Mantic forums, opened up both barrels in a forum and started namecalling and yelling at people, and then disappeared" and "I'm fairly sure that's what we call a 'troll'."
Would anyone disagree that is the behavior of an internet forum troll?

Read the entirety of the Mantic forums and you will find that the most hostile poster is, well, you.

So, we come full circle to answer the question you posed:

"Abuse on Mantic Forums. Is This Normal?"

No, it's not. It's almost unprecedented. However, we occasionally have a poster named Warwick who shows up, starts yelling and attacking people, and then goes to other forums and then attacks them there too.

Anyway, you are not a very nice person and I do not wish to continue to have dialog with you ever again in the future, for which I will exercise every possible way to hide or ignore your posts on any forum I may discover you are also a member.

Hi Warwick13. Well I only read the last few pages of that thread but they seem to be a nice group of people who are excited about a new game (and in many cases waiting for it to arrive as you are). I don't see anyone being abusive to you, just a few people suggesting that maybe you are getting a little too worked up over this. The important thing to remember is that it seems your toys are on their way :-)

Dang, Judge, don't go away angry. I thought we were having a good debate, if not entirely civil. At least an answer to my last question would be nice. Why am I not allowed to have a beef with Mantic over their decision to give the game to non-pledgers over those of us who funded the project in the first place? Is questioning Mantic against the rules? Is asking them to treat people who fronted money to make their game a success with respect so over the line that you express rage on their behalf? Why do you expect me to be happy my gaming buddies already have copies and I do not?
Mantic did not ban me, and I'm still excited about Dreadball, and I still have questions and comments to make on their forums, so we will be seeing each other again. Hopefully in a civil manner.

No idea who or what Mantic is, never been to their forums.

However, yeah, that's normal for the internet.

BTW, according to Kickstarter, they have no intention to nor interest in enforcing any sort of ethics on the people who use their service.

When you give to a kickstarter campaign, you have no rights. It is like giving money to charity, or throwing it away. The guy with the project can just keep the money and laugh. Caveat emptor.
-Kle.

I'm coming late to this party, but I do think that people who contribute to the Kickstarter campaign should get there stuff first. Might be difficult to do, but that seems to be the right thing to do on the manufacturer's part.

I also think that it is the moderators job on any forum to keep it civil. Why post all the admonitions about that very thing if you aren't going to follow through and back up words with actions.

Bill manages to do it on TMP pretty well. Doesn't always make him popular with the vocal minority, but it does make this site a place I'm happy to call home.

Having now read your posts on the mantic forum and the replies you got, and what you've posted here about how you were treated by those internet bullies…

All I've seen is you insulting the people who have been making fun off you and overreacting to what are nothing but friendly replies. I'll admit that after several of your posts some people thought you were winging a bit. Talk about an understatement. Then you leave and enter here as a drama queen complaining how you have been treated on the mantic forum.

The link has already been posted to the mantic forum thread mentioned, so anyone can make up his own mind. I have made up mine… no prizes for guessing what I'm thinking.

Judge Doug stated "Interestingly, Mantic is one of the very very few companies whose Kickstarters have:

1. shipped on time (Dreadball)
2. shipped early (Kings of War)"

Really? REALLY?!? You are going to make the claim that Mantic is one of like 3 companies to ever ship their stuff on time? Wow. That's pretty sad. Between a friend and I, we have purchased at least 12 different KS products, from 12 different companies, and ALL of them have shown up on time (or early).

After reading through this entire post, the only hostility I felt was from you, Judge. Now, admittedly, reading the written word and inferring tone of voice can sometimes be difficult. But, the tone I was "hearing" was defensive in nature. Assuming Warwick13 is correct and you "followed" him to this forum topic to defend Mantic does seem a little fanatical to me.

Oh, and being on the internet since 1993 is not special. :P

I feel Warwick is massivley misrepresenting what has happened over on the Mantic forum. I suggest people read and make up their own minds but what I see is totally different what he suggests.

If you feel you're getting abuse and rudeness from all forums I suggest you look for the common denominator.

I went and read your post, and then the responses. I don't see that you were rude in any way, nor were you "hostile" or "yelling" as the misguided Judge apparently believes. BUT, as far as I can see the Manticites said you were impatient and whiny, but that's pretty darn tame example of Internet abuse.

Your point is patently true-- that people are often terrible asses on Internet forums. But the folks on Mantic's were not really quite amongst that crowd.

wildbill:

looking up that mantic forum thread might seem fanatical to you… I did the same, because his original post here made me doubt his claims. I'm not following the mantic forums, but the other places I've been where dreadball is discussed, I've never seen the kind of hostility warwick mentioned.

But I want to know the facts before I make up my own mind, so I take the trouble to check his claims. Do the same, read how he thinks about his mates (slobs, tools, "average" gamers)

And Judge is referring to the CNN article about KS deliveries, based on the top 50 KS projects. One of those has now been kicked out of that list by DB, so the timely delivered ratio has now improved :-)