"Help with Infantry weapons?" Topic

Bought the Normandy plastics box from Bolt action, it has American and German Soldiers with seperate weapons…not sure how to arm them to get two generic squads. Advice?

My memory of the "paper" load-out:

Germans (10 man squad) 1x LMG, 1-2x SMG (typically the NCOs), 7-8x rifle

US (12 man squad) 1x BAR, 1-2x SMG (again, the NCOs), 9-10x Garands

Supposedly, veteran units would have higher proportions of the automatic weapons.

For the US squad, I'd think about the time period a little. IIRC SMGs were apparently not common in rifle squads until later in the war, especially with the M3. Instead the squad leader would be armed with an M1. If the squad was lucky, they might have a Thompson.

Damon.

IIRC, officially, the TO&E for the US rifle squad called for carbines for the SL, but there were enough SMGs available that the squads could have 1 or 2..

By the book is simple enough. US Squad, one BAR and every one else an M1 rifle for 1944 onwards, with the option of an extra BAR and SMG from the unallocated weapons at Coy level (six BARs and six SMGs).

German Grenadier Squad, two MPs, one LMG/pistol and six rifles, one of which could be scoped and another of which could be self-loading.

Gary

Sundance – you're probably thinking of parachute infantry. Carbines are for officers, artillerymen, ammo carriers, armored car crews and some scouts. SMG's were issued to tankers and half track drivers.

The six unallocated 'pool' guns controlled by the captain just aren't enough to arm nine rifle and five weapons squad leaders in an infantry company :)

I think Thompson or M3 Grease gun SMGs were pretty rare in US infantry units. The Garand was so handy as a jack of all trades weopon that the extra burst fire capability of the SMGs wasn't really needed much. BARs were also increasingly available and these could work as an SMG in all but the closest combat.

The PIR seemed to reduce smgs as the war went on with almost everone except some of the heavy weaopons crews using the M1 Garand. SMGs look cool in movies and comics and wargames – but their lack of range and weight (including all the ammo needed) made them less attractive.

The Germans put in more smgs as the war dragged on of course. But they had their 'proper' LMGs for longer range work and every other Fritz and Helmut was just an ammo bearer.

number4 – probably – I don't have my resources with me right now and going strictly by (admittedly faulty) memory.

I took a quick look at a picture of the Warlord sprue, and the only things we haven't mentioned are the bazooka and what might be a bolt-action Springfield. (US obviously. We've mentioned everything on the German.) The bazooka is a company asset, so a squad might occasionally have one, as is the Springfield.

The bazooka is part of the heavy weapons platoon, while the Springfields are supposed to be assigned to the best marksmen in the company to make them cut-rate snipers. Either or neither, your choice.

Motorized and armored infantry in the panzer divisions had gruppen (sections) of 1 NCO/SMG, 2 LMGs, and 9 rifles (usually Kar 98). In the motorized infantry of '41 the gruppe was divided between two sdkfz Protze trucks, each of which had a driver; in the armored infantry the entire gruppe rode in an sdkfz 251 halftrack (which had yet another MG).

I think we can leave the last word on effectiveness of SMG's in combat to the GI's themselves: handy if they happened to come up against "a kraut in a closet" link

Some squads retained a 1903 rifle for launching rifle grenades until the M7 launcher for the Garand was available

The bazooka was an 'extra' weapon that you got given to carry as well as your rifle if you had done the course or upset your platoon sgt. unlike the German army where the panzerschreck had dedicated operators assigned to it.

SMG's are really not as great on an open battlefield as people think. The rounds have far less penetrating power, they are not all that accurate, and have a pretty short range- in comparison to an actual rifle, like the 98K or Garand, whch will go through small trees, is pretty accurate depending upon the soldier, and has a much further effective range.

The US added the SMGs as 'optional weapons specifically for use during things like night time patrols, built up fighting, or other special actions. One thing a lot of people forget is that SMG ammo is heavy.

They were not at all common in rifle platoons. 1903A3 springfields were used int he rfile squad up until the time the unit could be issued M7 granade launchers. They contind to be used by rear echelon units through the entire war. The scoped 1903A4's appear to have often not been issued at all in companies. Either they had been lost, or no one wanted them, or know one knew how to really sight it in. My dad (a rifle company commander) wanted one for himself, but was unable to get one sent to his company in June-Sept 44.

One thing a lot of people forget is that SMG ammo is heavy.

Well, the individual pistol cartridges tend to be lighter than rifle cartridges. However, the magazines used to carry them would add quite a lot to the weight.

On a particular instance of aquisition of submachine guns (this is prior to the 30.06.1944 issue of 6 SMGs to the 26.02.1944 Infantry Company, Rifle T/O&E 7-17):

Maj. Henry G. Spencer, commanding the 1st Battalion, 23d
Infantry, followed the path of organizational improvisation. A former
enlisted marine and graduate of the Reserve Officer Training
Corps at Louisiana State University, he had served with the 23d
Infantry since being called to active duty. In the wake of a bloody
engagement on 8 June against German paratroopers, Spencer
called together his surviving officers to discuss what had taken
place. One of their chief complaints centered on the relatively low
number of automatic weapons in the infantry platoon. Whenever
an American fired his M1 rifle, enemy paratroopers replied with a
withering barrage from automatic weapons. In open terrain U.S.
soldiers would have had a distinct advantage with their longer-ranged
rifles, but the hedgerows frequently permitted German
paratroopers armed with short-range automatic weapons to
approach within yards of an American position without being
detected.
After pondering the situation, Spencer asked the regiment's
logistics officer, Maj. William R. Hinsch, to procure Thompson
.45-caliber submachine guns from antiaircraft units protecting
Omaha beach. By the morning of 17 June the battalion's soldiers
had eighty-seven additional automatic weapons. Spencer observed
that "no longer would our scouts have to go out with M1s or carbines
to protect themselves . . . with these additional automatic
weapons; we would [now] give even the German parachutists a
run for their money."3

3 Henry G. Spencer, Nineteen Days in June 1944 (Kansas City, Mo.: Lowell
Press, 1984), p. 179.

From pages 94-95 of:
PDF link

Nice find that! Does indicate that the authorised issue, or absence thereof, for SMGs in infantry units was felt by at least one Inf Regt. Always thought it strange, as there were shedloads for drivers in US Arty, and AAA, units.

Gary

Well, the individual pistol cartridges tend to be lighter than rifle cartridges.

True, but the .45 ACP slug weighs 230 grains while the 30-06 weighs 168 grains. A 5 cell magazine pouch fully loaded is a hefty item indeed.

Checking the rough numbers, a typical 9 mm SMG magazine with 30 round capacity seems to weight around 0.7 kg fully loaded. And a magazine of .45 ACP would have weighed a bit more. Carrier pouch for five magazines would certainly be a hefty item.

That said, it is probably still a pretty light item if compared to the ammo belt for BAR gunner, containing 12 box magazines each with 20 rifle cartridges.

BAR belts weigh in at about 20 pounds fully loaded, but that is distributed evenly around the waist. A 5 cell SMG pouch is around 9 pounds, but concentrated on one hip. They are definitely uncomfortable!

The Bayonet Strength website has loads of organizational and firearm info on all the players in Normandy. Another source of good info is the book "Spearheading D-Day" – J. Gawne – Histoire & Collections. This has actual equipment and ammo loads carried by the various assaulting US infantry. There is a book called "D-Day Paratroopers – The Americans" and "D-Day Paratroopers: British, Canadians & French" from the same publisher. One other is "The Gamer's Guide to WWII Small Unit Organizations and TO&Es" which is available from oldglory15s.com
The Nafziger collections also have info on many allied and axis formations in Normandy