"WOTR Flags - Confused from Gloucester" Topic

While I may have the figures I don't know a lot about livery and flags etc for WOTR. I have some of the Freezywater and The Square flags which I am looking at adding to my figures (in a reasonably accurate fashio). The Freezywater guide doesn't seem to help, so I fall upon the mercy of TMP.

Personal banners. They seem to be square and highly decorated. Were they carried by a standard bearer and the named persons livery likely to match the standard (ie loads of opportunity to get carried away painting key figures).

Livery Flags. Who carried them, is it just the colurs reproduced plus some minor badges (as suggested that different elements of a retinue have different badges on the common livery colour).

Long Tailed Banners. The FW guide indicates carried by cavalry due to size and weight.

What banners did the commanders of the "battles" carry, more of the same or something unique ?

Help appreciated, inlcluding any books readily available through the library

Personal banners. They seem to be square and highly decorated. Were they carried by a standard bearer and the named persons livery likely to match the standard (ie loads of opportunity to get carried away painting key figures).

My guess is yes, they would be carried by a standard bearer and seeing as the banner would be the lord's coat of arms, then yes, the livery would probably be similar.

Livery Flags. Who carried them, is it just the colurs reproduced plus some minor badges (as suggested that different elements of a retinue have different badges on the common livery colour).

I am not aware of any evidence that suggests that livery flags were carried in battle.

Long Tailed Banners. The FW guide indicates carried by cavalry due to size and weight.

These are essentially the personal banners of great lords or monarchs. I see no reson to assume that they could only be carried by mounted men. Indeed the evidence of history from later periods suggests that cavalry standards and flags were usually smaller than those carried by the foot.

What banners did the commanders of the "battles" carry, more of the same or something unique ?

The commanders themselves probably would not carry any banner. They would be too busy leading their men and fighting to do so.

Livery colours and the colours of the lord's coat of arms often did not match. Some colours seen in liveries were rare in heraldic arms (such as Murrey and Tawney).

You can look at the lshmwaco.org site in the gallery for how I handled it.

I put a long standard with the the "unit" containing the most important nobles like Somerset, Warwick, Essex, etc.

Then I put a Heraldry banner with every "unit", including the ones above.

So units with the big nobles have both a long Standard and a Heraldry banner.

I only added Livery banners for the King and the Pretender on the other side.

Since virtually no Knights and MAA troops fought on horse during any battle except Bosworth IMHO (there being some lesser horse at Towton, etc) I stayed away from flags on horse on any historical OOB.

I did add some on mounted knights just for grins, but doubt knights fought mounted during WOTR 99% of the time. Charles the Bold, HYW, etc would be different.

Check out my figs for ideas. My units are 4 stands each.

Thanks for the input.

I currently have "long" banners with my generals (I play Bloody Barons as a light hearted pick up and go type game). Which equate to your important nobles. These are currently generic so might see what is on offer at Warfare on Saturday.

I have a collection of heraldic flags (5 PDF Sheets with 12 flags per sheet) which I downloaded a long time ago which seem to have come from vexillia which can then go as the flags on each of the captains and possibly as a second flag on a general base (need to try that idea out).

I might keep clear of the livery until I have a better idea but from a WOTR flavour I think that this might be the way to start off anyway

"Since virtually no Knights and MAA troops fought on horse during any battle except Bosworth IMHO (there being some lesser horse at Towton, etc)"

*cough*BloreHeath*cough*

I'd use long standards for major lords as the rallying point for large contingents, possibly even a ward. Then I'd sprinkle MAA units with personal (heraldry) banners. Finally – historically accurate or not – I'd use livery flags for commoner units. YMMV, it all depends on how do you organize your forces (depending on ruleset/besing convention etc.).

Ooooh, I do like the idea of using livery for the Levy units (my terminology)……That would work.

Blore Heath, Hexham, Wakefield all mention Cavalry to a minor extent (I think Blore Heath is the only major one). But in terms of long tailed flags and banners I am going to keep them with Generals. Just need to find out at Warfare who does them otherwise it will be the trusty inkjet printer again.

You want the "Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses " in three volumes from the Lance and Longbow Society
lanceandlongbow.com

Be warned though – all three books will set you back £27.00 GBP !!

Thanks for the link

I was thinking along the lines of a more general publication. Anyone have a thought on this one from the same family

link

CAG, this one has drawings and some useful text, but no actual flags to use on minis :)However, if you're not too shy to make your own flags, the volume is about all that you need for long standards for WotR, all major lords' are described within it.

Lance and Longbow are at Reading so I can have a chat and see what takes my fancy. Thanks to all for the input

Si

Th eheraldic banners were the personal standards of knights and lords, carried by a close acquaintance (it being n honour to do so).

Livery and livery banners (which did not have to match the lord's herladic colours or charges in any way) were worn and carried by the troops in his service. These seem to have been square and with a single badge. Multiple badges can be fond and there is some suggestion that differetn units (either by region or by troop type) may have carried different badges.

The standard – the long flag with multiple badges and mottos – appears to have been primarily for use on horseback or to mark the lord's position in camp.These are very big f;ags and, perhaps, not practical for carrying onto the field.

The Lance and Lonbow Society published a really good introduction to WotR liivery badges and banners and three superb volumes dealing wiht the herladic banners of participants too.

Thanks to All, I picked up the "Standards, Bages & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses" at Warfare today. Also had a chat with Dave on the topic and he gave me some useful info…Mostly along the lines of "This is what we think.." I ran out of real money on the day so could only get the WRF1 and WRF3 standards at the end. I have a large collection of the heraldics to go on the same bases as the Standards and some ideas about mixing heralds in. So more to follow….As Usual