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"Rules with a second or third edition?" Topic


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794 hits since 14 Nov 2012
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Tin Soldier Man Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 7:57 a.m. PST

Do many rules ever successfully produce a second, third or greater edition?

45thdiv Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 8:01 a.m. PST

Johnny reb
Command Desision
Close action

abelp0114 Nov 2012 8:01 a.m. PST

Shako
General de Brigade
Flames of War

jameshammyhamilton14 Nov 2012 8:03 a.m. PST

It rather depends on your definition of many.

There are a fair number of rules on the market that are on their second or third edition. Some are on their 6th or higher :O

I would say that no more than 25% of sets get a second edition though

Personal logo richarDISNEY of the RDGC Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member14 Nov 2012 8:10 a.m. PST

D&D 3.5
Star Wars Saga Edition
Blood Bowl 2nd
beer

ancientsgamer Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member14 Nov 2012 8:13 a.m. PST

WRG
DBM
Warhammer and Warhammer 40K
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
DBA
Hordes of the Things
Mein Panzer
Empire
Epic 40K/Epic Armageddon

Chief Lackey Rich Supporting Member of TMP Fezian14 Nov 2012 8:37 a.m. PST

Armies of Arcana
Full Thrust
Dirtside
Stargrunt
Starmada

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 8:51 a.m. PST

Volley and Bayonet
The Sword and the Flame

doug redshirt Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 8:58 a.m. PST

I can see a second edition that comes out 5 or so years later, that fixes minor details to make a good or great ruleset better. If you produce a ruleset that needs to be fix in six months or sooner you have cheated everyone who bought the first edition. Any ruleset that has more then two editions in less then 10 years is a rulesset not worth buying.

That is why "The Sword And The Flame" is so great. Two editions in 30 years and the second edition didn't really change any rules. Just added another game and some minor variations.

snodipous14 Nov 2012 9:20 a.m. PST

The third edition of I Ain't Been Shot Mum is miles better than 2nd (I never had 1st).

Caesar14 Nov 2012 9:34 a.m. PST

An "edition" really needs to be an improvement – either in fixing mistakes or introducing changes. It should not be a "scheduled reinventing itself" kind of thing to inject some extra cash into the business.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 9:39 a.m. PST

It would seem unlikely that most smaller companies could produce rules that would not need subsequent editions. The amount of people play testing a ruleset would need to be fairly large to find all of the flaws in it and it would be key to have people play it who have never had the writer or writers involved in the play test.

Certainly it could happen but I would imagine that the Bleeped text really hits the fan when rules are released to a large audience. So it seems that 2nd editions, revisions and so forth are fairly inevitable if a game is to be played at all.

ancientsgamer Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member14 Nov 2012 9:53 a.m. PST

Agree with Pictors assessment. Even with extensive playtesting, inbalance and quirks pop up. Then there is the inevitable gamer that finds a way to exploit some nuance or gimmick that is unintended.

I also love it when people bash a set of rules, then complain that revised edition is still the same, fixes problems that didn't exist and then still refuse to try them again… sigh…

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 10:07 a.m. PST

WRG Ancients (Editions 1 – 7)

DBA is at 2.1 (?)

Personal logo Brigadier General Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 10:21 a.m. PST

AD&D Battlesystem
Chainmail
Combat: WW2
Adventures with Gun, Sabre & Horse

vojvoda Inactive Member14 Nov 2012 10:32 a.m. PST

Dozens!

Classical Hack,
DBA
Empire
Shako
Johnny Reb III

on and on.

VR
James Mattes

PatrickWR14 Nov 2012 10:33 a.m. PST

Song of Blades & Heroes Revised -- creator took lots of player feedback and kept the development process fully transparent. Players were using the WIP new rules and offering feedback as the book came together. It was really the model on how this sort of thing should be done.

Personal logo Gonsalvo Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 11:22 a.m. PST

From the Piquet family of rules, 2nd editions of:

Master Rules
Archon
Band of Brothers
Hallowed Ground
Din of Battle
Cartouche
Point of Attack: The Blitzkreig
Field of Battle

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 11:48 a.m. PST

Sometimes it's a vast improvement, like The Sword and the Flame.
Other times, it's an excuse to make people throw out the old ones and buy new. Any number of tournament style rules would fit this descriotion. Naming no names…

Personal logo richarDISNEY of the RDGC Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member14 Nov 2012 11:52 a.m. PST

I forgot:
Infinity
beer

MajorB14 Nov 2012 12:13 p.m. PST

Perhaps it'd be easier to list the ones that HAVEN'T gone to a second edition?

advocate14 Nov 2012 2:01 p.m. PST

Blitzkrieg Commander

Grelber14 Nov 2012 7:45 p.m. PST

Pretty much all the rules I buy go to a new edition within a few months after I buy them. 8^(
Grelber

nsolomon99 Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2012 10:08 p.m. PST

My two favoured Napoleonic Rules Sets are 3rd Editions – La Feu Sacre and General de Brigade. Both were good rules in their second editions but are real winners in their 3rd release.

Dexter Ward15 Nov 2012 4:56 a.m. PST

It's probably quicker to list the rules which had an unsuccessful second or third edition.
Apart from WAB, what would they be?

Personal logo doc mcb Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2012 5:50 p.m. PST

Pictors is exactly correct. We had played PRIDE OF LIONS 100+ times before it was published, but still found -- and are still finding -- new wrinkles that need clarifying. Mind you, it's things that only happen very rarely, or unusual combinations. But there's too many variables ever to pre-test all of them.

So 2nd edition PRIDE had some longer or clearer expanations. But I also added a lot of new stuff as well. Plus the Yahoo group members who had bought first edition got a very low price on 2nd.

billthecat04 Dec 2012 2:51 p.m. PST

Second or maybe third, yes.
Fourth, fifth, sixth, etc… no.

Initial revision/editing/minor rules changes and clarifications is generally a good thing. Designers tend to get things right after some playtesting and 2-3 revisions.

Change for change sake is just a money-making excercise in modifying/rewriting rules that were better left alone. One major game company comes to mind immediatley…

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