"How do you Waterloo?" Topic

So if 'the mud mattered', would it have mattered fifteen minutes earlier? or thirty? or an hour? And if so, by how much?

That is what I am getting at. I struggle to believe that people would have been 'wading through the glorious Flanders mud' if the attack had been launched at 1130, but everything was perfectly fine because Napoleon cunningly waited until midday.

If the French player elects to launch his attack 'early', how would you penalise him? And would this vary on how early he launched it?

Or would you just ban him from launching the attack early?

If the French player elects to launch his attack 'early', how would you penalise him? And would this vary on how early he launched it?

The mud affected the Prussian approach march more than anything else. If the mud was good enough for the French to fight through at 11a.m., then the Prussians should be arriving earlier too – by a fair chunk too. I'd penalise the French every hour they attack before 1pm – that should cool the ardour to attack early.

I think that another reason that is not stated often – aside from the ground conditions is that Napoleon's Guard was still arriving on the battle field in the morning. I would think that part of the issues they were dealing with was just trying to move into position in time to conduct the attacks that Napoleon had directed.

I am confident they were not dawdling….looking at puddles on the ground but rather attempting to put everything into position – it just took longer than expected to get it done due to the ground conditions.

Whirlwind

But did the Prussians delay their approach march to wait for the ground to dry out? I am not aware of that if they did. Historially, I believe I am right in saying that – even if it slowed them up a bit – the Prussians were moving while Napoleon wasn't: so I am not sure how the French player deciding to attack earlier should bring the Prussians onto the field sooner?

If the ground was hard going, isn't it more appropriate to give a movement penalty which varies with time?

If the issue was the effectiveness of artillery fire over soft ground (which would equally have impacted Wellington's guns, one would imagine?) then a similar modifier could be included, again, which would lessen over time as the ground firmed up.

If, on the other hand, Napoleon delayed his attack as he preferred to wait for certain elements to arrive, then that is a different matter altogether, and suggests the whole mud thing is a bit of a red herring? If we instead accept this is the case, shouldn't the French player still be allowed to attack with the forces that WERE ready, and feed the newly arrived ones in as and when they turn up?

But did the Prussians delay their approach march to wait for the ground to dry out? I am not aware of that if they did. Historially, I believe I am right in saying that – even if it slowed them up a bit – the Prussians were moving while Napoleon wasn't: so I am not sure how Napoleon deciding to move earlier would have brought the Prussians onto the field sooner?

No, they didn't. My point was rather that we could take Napoleon and the Prussians at their word, and say that they were both doing their level best to move. If you think that it couldn't have been 'that' bad for the French, best too also imagaine that it couldn't have been 'that' bad for the Prussians, so get them on the battlefield earlier.

Regards

Whirlwind

Not sure I follow that logic? The Prussians were moving. The French weren't.

Napoleon delayed his attack seemingly because he either considered the ground to wet to advance across / use artillery over or (alternatively) was waiting for additional troops to arrive / assemble. So – though Napoleon's reasons may well have been perfectly sound – I certainly don't think he was doing his level best to move throughout the morning.

If, by way of example – at 0700 hrs – I'm lying in bed and you're driving to work, the fact that – at 0800 hrs – I decide to get up and also start driving to work doesn't mean you're car will suddenly start going faster.

So if a French player wants to tweak history a bit, and launch his attack an hour or two early, should this be allowed and under what conditions / restrictions?

If, by way of example – at 0700 hrs – I'm lying in bed and you're driving to work, the fact that – at 0800 hrs – I decide to get up and also start driving to work doesn't mean you're car will suddenly start going faster.

Sure. But either assume you have to drive as slowly as I did because of the conditions, or if you assume that you could have driven faster in the conditions, assume I could too!

Regarsd

Whirlwind

But you are missing the point: in my example, one driver did not move at all for a while. The other did.
If you look out of the window and say: 'its too wet to go out in the car today' that doesn't mean that NO ONE can go out in the car.

The Prussians moved in the conditions: the French CHOSE not to.

The laws of physics do not mean that if the French had moved too, the Prussians would have moved faster – they were already moving!

But you are missing the point: in my example, one driver did not move at all for a while. The other did.
If you look out of the window and say: 'its too wet to go out in the car today' that doesn't mean that NO ONE can go out in the car.

I'm honestly not missing the point.

I am saying if you are designing a game of Waterloo, you either want to simulate the mud that was causing a drama or you don't.

If you do want to simulate it, then restrict the French movement heavily, reduce their combat effectiveness and penaize the artilery.

If you don't want to simulate it and change history so that the mud wasn't a factor, then speed up the Prussians to compensate.

Regards

No wish to refight Waterloo.

With the French knowing how how little time they have they have a huge advantage. They can still balls it up but it's not an easy game to make balanced.

Any French commander is going to throw EVERYTHING at the allies ASAP. And considering how underrated most of the allied troops are (unfairly) it would take very poor dice rolls to lose.

I'd favour rating all line troops the same, exceptions made for British Guards, Rifles including jδger, French Guards…. Possibly Nassau and Swiss, but depending on a conversation And the only below average troops being militia or the more conscript laden French formations.

I'd randomize the Prussian arrival. And I'd make the entry point random aswell. Should stop the French from being able to pre empt exactly what will happen. I'd make full use of personal objective cards and chance cards.
One which such things are printed as …
"Napoleon is sick.. He must leave the room for 1 2 or 3 turns to recover"
"Out of ammunition" and all other manner of handicaps and bonuses.

Personal objectives for each commander too.
Ney would be the most fun… Lead at least 5 cavalry charges. Break at least two enemy squares with cavalry.
Orange. Order at least two units to Advance in line while enemy cavalry is near if they are not run down you win for revolutionizing warfare.

That kind of thing. Throw as many spanners in the works as possible.

Whirlwind

This part of your post makes sense to me:

"If you do want to simulate it, then restrict the French movement heavily, reduce their combat effectiveness and penaize the artilery".

But I still cannot get my head round your idea that if the French decide to move early, then the Prussians somehow magically speed up. Are you suggesting that if the French launched their attack an hour earlier, this would somehow have impacted the going / terrain the Prussians were crossing!? You earlier claimed that the mud impacted the Prussians more than anyone else – and yet they moved throughout the morning, and the French did not.

If you (ie. the Prussians) are able to walk across the sodden terrain at (eg) 2 mph, what I (ie. the French) do (eg. stand and wait / push forwards with a few light troops / push forwards and accept I'll go a bit more slowly etc) a few miles away has absolutely no impact on the speed you can do. Unless I am missing something?

However, the other point I am interested in is that the French should be heavily penalised if they launch their attack early – how much earlier would be relevant? If they launched it half an hour early, surely that would not have made much of an impact?

I know it all comes down to how much latitude to give a player, but if I was playing the French, I would expect to be able to vary from reality within reason – electing to start the attack an hour or two earlier than in reality (with associated logical penalties) seems reasonable to me.

However, the other point I am interested in is that the French should be heavily penalised if they launch their attack early – how much earlier would be relevant? If they launched it half an hour early, surely that would not have made much of an impact?
I know it all comes down to how much latitude to give a player, but if I was playing the French, I would expect to be able to vary from reality within reason – electing to start the attack an hour or two earlier than in reality (with associated logical penalties) seems reasonable to me.

Well in terms of gaming Waterloo, this makes quite a bit of a difference. Half-an-hour is quite a big power-up to the French, and is a no-brainer, unless your rules severely punish attacking in the mud.

The bit about the Prussians isn't that there is a magical connection between the French activity and their march rate. It is that the bad state of the ground affected them far more than any other combatant – they had to march the furthest. So if you depart from reality and make the ground workable for the French before noon, I would expect the Prussian approach march to be speeded up by at least an equal amount.

Regards

But I still cannot get my head round your idea that if the French decide to move early, then the Prussians somehow magically speed up. Are you suggesting that if the French launched their attack an hour earlier, this would somehow have impacted the going / terrain the Prussians were crossing!?

Maybe the French and Prussians are quantumly entangled at the sub-molecular level?

I think I get it …
If mud is a factor the French start at the normal time, and so do the Prussians. Because the French are waiting for it to dry, and the Prussians are plodding through it.

If mud isn't a factor and the French can attack march through it early, while its still wet and stodgy with no problem… Then likewise so can't he Prussians.

If mud IS a factor BUT the French can still attack through early then they should suffer some penalties, reduced movement, risk of losing cannon ect ect.

That's the gist of it I think.

You could elect to allow the French to attack early with no penalties AND say that the mud at Waterloo has dried, but its not dried where the Prussians are. Maybe the drab and miserable Prussian uniforms have brought the weather with them.

There is a great scenario in the Wellington's Victory board game that deals with an early advance by Napoleon. I do not have it in front of me, bit I remember it had a 0900 hrs start time.

Mostly infantry fight. The real problem is what is available to Napoleon. I Corps is in position, as is the supporting Cavalry Corps. That's it. II Corps, VI, Kellerman's Corps and the guard are just marching up, in road column.

By 1300 hrs., usually the French are just mopping up the remenants of the Allied army.

Whirlwind

But I am not saying that the ground states would be different / more workable than they were in reality – only that the French would decide to attack early nonetheless. This has been the whole point I have been making all along and I think I have been very clear.

There is no way the ground in front of the French could have been an utterly impassable quagmire, allowing absolutely no movement whatsoever at (eg) 1130 but completely fine at (eg) 1200. That defies all logic.

So if the French decide to make the best of it at (eg) 1100 or 1130 or whatever, this can certainly see them suffer movement penalties or whatever, but it can in no way impact the movement rate of the Prussians – unless, as TelesticWarrior mentioned – there is a sub-molecular quantum entanglement going on.

There is no way the ground in front of the French could have been an utterly impassable quagmire, allowing absolutely no movement whatsoever at (eg) 1130 but completely fine at (eg) 1200. That defies all logic.

So if the French decide to make the best of it at (eg) 1100 or 1130 or whatever, this can certainly see them suffer movement penalties or whatever, but it can in no way impact the movement rate of the Prussians – unless, as TelesticWarrior mentioned – there is a sub-molecular quantum entanglement going on.

Quantum entanglement – what are you and TW going on about?

There is no way the ground in front of the French could have been an utterly impassable quagmire, allowing absolutely no movement whatsoever at (eg) 1130 but completely fine at (eg) 1200. That defies all logic.

Yes, logically the French player should still be penalised at noon and for a while afterwards, maybe until 1. The penalties for attacking earlier should be severe enough that the French player should be reluctant to actually do it.

Look, if you want to give the French a power-up, go for it; if you want to assume that Napoleon ("I may lose a battle but I shall never lose a minute") was idling for 30-60 minutes but luckily our present-day wargamers can show him how it is done, fine; it is your game. I'm out of this one.

"Quantum entanglement – what are you and TW going on about?"

Trying to understand why you think the French moving earlier would make the Prussians able to march faster.
I'm sorry you are 'out of this one' as I am still confused about this metaphysical anomaly.

Edwulf

"If mud IS a factor BUT the French can still attack through early then they should suffer some penalties, reduced movement, risk of losing cannon ect ect"

That is exactly it.

The quantum entanglement joke was just a bit of fun.

According to experiments in quantum physics, if scientists change the movement of an atomic particle then the movement of an entirely separate atomic partcle will change as well, if those two particles are 'entangled' with each other (even if those two particles do not share the same physical location!). Very, very, very, weird and trippy.
Such is my (very basic) understanding of quantum physics anyway. Its probably impossible for large bodies of matter such as Corps of Frenchmen & Prussians to be entangled in this way, but it was just a joke anyway. Sorry if it ed anyone off.

TelesticWarrior

I think everyone knew you were joking!

Bulldog, just making sure!

Edwulf nailed it. If the French go for it earlier then you must penalise them, but the Prussians should not automatically speed up.

TelesticWarrior

Absolutely – the automatic Prussian speed-up was the bit that baffled me… and still does. I'm guessing it was thrown out as a 'gamey' way to stop an early French attack happening – rather like saying the edges of the board are impassable minefields or whatever. The point is that I don't want to simply 'ban' a player from doing something that they could plausibly have done.

So I just wondered if anyone had done this before in a Waterloo re-fight?
Giving the French the option to start their attack at differing (ie. earlier) times with differing sets of penalties? Maybe half-movement between 1000 hours and 1100 hours and three quarter movement for another hour thereafter or whatever?

Or if the attack is launched move before a certain time, there is a chance of areas of terrain which are marched over change designation for the remainder of the battle – eg. what was 'clear' becomes 'marsh' to reflect the sodden ground being churned up by a few thousands pairs of boots and sets of hooves.

Is it worth risking it? Napoleon thought not, but then again, his plan didn't work out too well in the event.

I find it impossible to believe that there was absolutely nothing that could have been done until a given time, and then everything was suddenly fine thereafter.

To me, the fun of wargaming is looking at things like this – the 'plausible what-ifs', if you will. I don't think for a moment that it is ridiculous for a French player to have some realistic options re. when / where / how to start his attack.

I think Napoleon could definitely have attacked earlier. The phrase Ney uses in the Waterloo film when he growls "Well, we've fought with mud on our boots before!" springs to mind.
He just chose not to do so because he thought he had more time on his side. Some people on the 'Humbugged' thread have suggested that he ridiculed the idea of the Prussians turning up because he thought they were finished and he got 'sloppy' in his thinking. I don't buy it. Von Bulows Corps wasn't even engaged at Ligny so obviously that was still a potential threat in the campaign. I think his decision was based on poor intelligence gathering by the French, plus he was relying on Grouchy to hound the Prussians better. But that's another story.

P.S. I like your idea of areas of terrain which are marched over changing designation to boggy ground for the remainder of the battle.
Mpanko's (and other war-gamers) battlefield set-up might look very different with all that mud around, not quite so aesthetically pleasing.

TelesticWarrior

Yes – I completely agree that he could have attacked earlier. I grew up on a farm, cut peat by hand every summer as a teenager, served in the infantry for seven years, work in exploration drilling in the jungles and bush, and hunt / 4x4 a lot – and I have NEVER seen ground transform from being utterly impassable to being perfectly OK in the course of a few hours. If ground is impassably wet and boggy at 0900 hours, it will be a little bit less impassably wet and boggy after a few hours of sunshine. There is absolutely no way you will be wading through mud if you advance at 1100hrs, but marching cheerfully along if you hang on an hour.

Similarly to what you say, my belief is – based on the intelligence he had available – Napoleon simply thought he had plenty of time so did not feel the need to rush it. Thinking there was no hurry, when he was issuing his orders, Napoleon picked a fairly arbitary time to start his attack – he could just as easily have guessed the ground would be a bit drier at 1100 hrs, 1200 hrs, 1300hrs or 1400hrs – I don't think for a moment Napoleon made some sort of scentific judgement based on some sort of mythical exact moment that the ground all across the battlefield would suddenly change from poor to good going – it was a 'best guess' / 'thumb suck' as to when it would be a bit better underfoot / for artillery. And as others have mentioned, he may also have been waiting for a last few units to arrive so his timing may have been influenced more by that, rather than the ground conditions in any case.

If, on the other hand, Napoleon had known there was something of a time constaint, I am sure he would have pitched his men into the action with much more alacrity.

At the risk of repeating myself, the main ground problem (for the French) was not that it was impassable (it wasn't, just very heavy going esp. for cavalry), but that until most of the night's rain had drained into the lowest part of the field, Wellington's ridge would suck up the shot instead of seeing it ricochet. Standing on the ridge opposite, Napoleon's artillery commanders (or he himself as a trained gunner) would have known fairly exactly when the ground was sufficiently drained.

Meaning that any "early attack" scenario needs to account for Bijlandt's men being in much better shape (having been exposed, if at all, to a shorter bombardment by fewer guns with their effect lessened by the mud), as well as for I Corps going in with no support except some heavy cavalry that would definitely have trouble crossing the bottom of the valley (remember Ponsonby's fate).

Musketier

Fair enough – but even accepting that theory (I only say that as others have offered differing opinions), nothing there leads me to believe that an early attack should not be an option for a French player.

I don't think Napoleons start time was that scientific either, he probably had staff Officers poking about in the mud, in a similar way to groundsmen testing football pitches with forks etc to see if they're playable yet.
He would have sent in the attack earlier if he knew Blucher had wriggled free of Grouchy. There was no question of him pulling back, it was all or nothing for Napoleon at this point. I think Napoleon really had very few options available to him during this campaign, outnumbered as he was and with the Russians and Austrians also on the way.

BullDog69,

oh it could certainly be an option – hence my outlining the changed set of circumstances, which your suggestion of degrading terrain reflects rather nicely. Just as the wide left swing advocated by Jιrτme and others was an option – until the Great Man chose to discard them.

How far a given scenario ought to deviate from the historical "starting briefs" is up to the group staging it I suppose.

TW,

have to agree with you there: Napoleon's campaign plan could probably be summed up as "Brussels or Bust"!

Musketier

Yes – that's the age-old problem, isn't it? How much latitude do you give a player and when have you given him so much that you are no longer re-fighting Waterloo?

There are no right or wrong answers to that, I feel – its entirely up to the players to decide how far they want to tinker with history.
Personally, I like to allow players to do anything their historical counter-parts could reasonably have done, and nothing they couldn't – but I guess even that is a disconcertingly vague definition.

Can Napoleon reasonably have commenced his attack an hour or two earlier? Of course. Therefore – in my view – the rules must take this into account and there must be logical penalties / restrictions to account for this.
I suppose a player might even choose to wait an extra hour beyond what Napoleon did – though that would be a somewhat audacious move!

'Brussels or Bust'?

Terry-Thomas as Napoleon?
Sid James as the Iron Duke?
Must be a role for Hattie Jacques in there?

Re the 'mud/start time' issue- One evenhanded solution might be to dry the ground from the highest elevations down hour by hour. As long as your movement rules reflect a penalty for Belgan sticky mud this constrains the movement of artillery across the battlefield- moving guns forward from rise to rise through the dips and valleys would be problematic- and it was the artillery (and attendant vehicles) that both the Prussians and the French had trouble with that morning.
Having said that- the French seemingly could have begun the battle an hour earlier probably…The energy of command was depleted at its source (in my own opinion)

Forest, meet the Trees. Trees, meet the Forest.

An endless argument over mud -- typical Napoleonic Discussion board fare. Not particularly germane to the poster's desire to set up and host a wargame.

Well, at least the debate is polite and civil. Carry on.

Waterloo may have been muddy but it had nothing on these guys

YouTube link

Thanks for your kind permission, Der Alte Fritz.

I also think discussing how to model the impact of the mud / options of varying start times is perfectly germane to the OP – the question was asked 'How do you Waterloo?' and we are discussing how much latitude a player should have in a re-fight.

I am at a loss as to why that would not be a relevant topic to discuss in such a thread?

Well this thread has definitely been helpful – for what I am working on it gives me a good start point and setup…both historic to keep in the theme of a 200th anniversary game.

I think there is plenty of things that could be looked at as variables – start times, prussian arrival, flank marches etc that a veteran group of gamers would want to look at.

Thanks again for the input – BTW I have posted another thread since this one began on the first scenario I am developing in the construction of this game – D'Erlon's Assault. Intent is to get it ready in time for the conventions this year. Thanks.

Mike

I backed away slowly when we started talking Quantum Physics.
No brain for science me.

For an early Waterloo start, just keep this in context. Only half the French army is available at 0900. That in itself is a penalty. If you want to wait 2 hours to bring up the rest of the army, then you will be close to historic start times. Don't worry about the mud; rather, concentrate on what is available to start the battle. Try to fight Waterloo with half the French at 9a.m.; they couldn't seem to get it done with the whole army present!

With the exception of limiting bouncing cannonballs, I don't see where mud plays a prominent part. The Prussians marched through it, while the French and British fought in it. Cav charged thru it, infantry formed square in it.

I would say that if you start early, the Prussians have to be eliminated from the scenario. By 4p.m. when they arrive, the battle should be long over…one way or another.

Just try the early start scenario and see if you don't agree. At 0900 hrs, it is only the Allies and the French. The Prussians are miles and hours away.

Mud???

Is this the General who fought at Eylau in the mud, frost, slush and snow? And in the dark?

Mud was inconveneint and a factor, but by 1815 the French were accustomed to prepare thier fights in the mornings, have an early lunch/late brunch and then do battle from the middle of the day and into the afternoons. What time did Ligny start? What time did Quatre Bras start? What happened on the morning of the 16th at Quatre Bras? And no mud!!! :o)

You wont see the French in the field, fed and ready to go before 11:00.

Napoleon let this happen. He was on the downward slope of his career, and considered he could get away with it; underestimating his most deadly enemy by far too great a margin.

As for the game, my club did Waterloo using Age of Eagles as a mini campaign, starting on the night of Ligny.

We played in 15mm using 1" = (iirc) 150 yards.

Napoleon personally deployed his main force against the retreating prussians, who chose a less than perfect spot to defend between Ligny and Wavre. With the bias towards Cuirassiers in AOE the cavalry rolled over the Prussian defenders and stormed on with breakthbrough charges to take the Prussian IV corps in the rear as they were struggling to cross the Dyle by the few available bridges.

Meanwhile at Waterloo a flank envelopment was tried on Wellington's right, and which dared not exit the woods round there into the killing ground arc of fire that was in place. A mutually inconclusive fight in the woods took attrition losses each turn for both sides.

ONce the Prussians were done for, Napoleon stormed across the Dyle, Wellington tried to counter with his cavalry but was caught in a French pincer.

Welly retrieved as much of his army as possible, and headed for Oostend……

Some photos, and French order maps are on

link

I found Frank Chadwick's excellent VnB supplement on the campaign very useful to help develop terrain maps.

We used a big table, which went from Braine l'Alleud in NW to just north of Ligny in SE. 16' x 12'. Your table is likely to be bigger again I suspect.

Paul Simms at my club did another Waterloo some time later using General de Brigade, much larger scale of troops, smaller ground scale and therefore much bigger sets of tables. Paul hired a village hall for a weekend and did as much as they could in the time available. I dont know if he's on TMP, but you can check the Sons of Simon de MOntfort web site to leave a message. He's a great guy and Im sure will give you some further details.

Cheers,

Is this the General who fought at Eylau in the mud, frost, slush and snow? And in the dark?

How did that work out for him?