"Copying Discontinued Models?" Topic

I have some of the old Ensign 1/1200 scale ships, but could really do with a few more. I have tried Ebay and dealers in 1/1200 scale models, but just can't get what I need.

My question is, as these models are no longer being produced, if I was to copy them just to make up the numbers I need, am I doing wrong? I wouldn't be selling them or trying to profit in any way, it really would be just to get the numbers I need for my own use.

Get ready for this thread to derail in Three….Two….One….

Still a 'no no'.

Before we even start discussing this…a quick question…Which country do you live in???

I'm in the UK

As near as I understand, you do not posess the rights to copy the creation of the author.

ergo copyright. Try contacting the people of the old company and ask for their permission.

Yes you are doing wrong.

I would suggest using another manufacturers products to make up the numbers, or get another sculptor to make new models

……

Assuming you are going to cast them at home and do not have a professional casting set up.

What you do behind your own closed doors is up to you. But at the end of the day I'll tell you. You will not be happy with the cast or level of detail of your home cast attempts.

It's a great idea to contact the old company. your adventure and treasure at the end will mean your prize is even more worth it because of the journey.

That fails then try hiring a sculptor and finding a professional casting service. Again, the rewards and the journey will mean more to you at the end of the day.

hope that helps.

I asked the very same question years ago, and oddly enough it was about ships too.
The owner of the rights kindly gave me permission, and told me what I would have to do to make my own.
That would have been just too much work on my part, particularly since I was ignorant of the techniques, materials, etc.
I passed, and he traded me for some leftovers he still had in his barn.

Far too many gamers assume that "But I WANT them!" is sufficient.
The original manufacturer possesses RIGHTS to them, and that includes the RIGHT to NOT produce them any more, as much as that may annoy the gamer who "needs" them.

I have looked this up on the web, but their appears to be a web site set up that discusses ensign and other 1/1200 models – perhaps asking their might get you a response.

From reading that page, clearly some copying with modification went into some of the early ranges…it might be possible to find out if the original rights holders of the primary unconverted model would let you make a similar conversion now… and then to make that model, and arrange for a casting company to make it.

Without permission it is wrong. (and seemingly you might need permission from multiple people…)

I've done this already Maddaz and am awaiting a reply.

I used to buy these models form Cameron Robertson from Northern Ireland, but the last I heard was he was in very poor health…

Hopefully that shipmodels site will be able to help me.

Here, let me stoke the fire with another log…

What if the figures in question are not only OOP, but they were originally produced without the rights to the subject matter, hence the cease and decist letter to the miniature manufacturer not to produce any more of the figures? Does the sculpter still retain his rights to the sculpts, even though he created them 'illeglly' by not having the rights to the material in the first place? (The miniatures were sculpted down-under, but sold world-wide.)

David G.
gamerarchitect.blogspot.com

I won't tell anyone if you don't.

This is a topic that comes up fairly often. What are other topics that repeat as often?

Yes it's legally wrong. No question about it.

But at home, and not for resale, and if the things aren't available anymore ?

Look at the founding fathers of the modern hobby – homecasters and pirates to a man ! Don't believe me ? It's all there in their books and magazine articles. Of course, once a source for figures became available they stopped.

John the OFM's point that "I need it" is no justification I generally agree with. However I'd temper that with – if you've invested a lot of money buying hundreds of figures, and then spent hundreds of hours painting them, and then you require a few more dozens of figures to finish the task and the manufacturer says "nah, don't do them anymore" then I really wouldn't blame anyone for just a little home casting.

dglennjr – that's a good point.

Many early fantasy ranges (Minifigs, Archive, etc etc) made use of copyright material (Conan, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars etc etc) and didn't pay for the rights. Technically these figures were illegal ! So, as you say, how could I ask permission to home cast figures that were manufactured under a copyright infringement?

So here's the other long standing question. How much does something have to be modified before you can copy it. Case in point.

Tyco Factory:

link

JR Miniatures Stalingrad Munitions Factory

link

So is JR Miniatures (now closed) guilty of copyright violation??

I have both the plastic tyco model and the resin JR miniatures model and there is no doubt that the JR is just the Tyco kit modified and cast.

Because someone still owns the intellectual rights to the concept…

It falls under the 'two wrongs don't make it right' which most of us learned as children.

Realistically – NO ONE is going to come after you for making copies of these for your own use. The manufacturer is not losing a sale, so do what you think is best. Just don't ever try to sell them.

So is JR Miniatures (now closed) guilty of copyright violation??

Probably. Even though the product is substantially modified, it is still derived without permission.

In the US, legally:

OOP? Irrelevant.
Can't contact IP owner? Irrelevant.
I can't buy it anywhere? Irrelevant.
Personal use? Irrelevant.
I really want it? Irrelevant.
Not going to sell them? Irrelevant.
IP owner not loosing a sale? Does not stand up in court.
IP owner has not come after me? Irrelevant.
IP owner does not chase little guys? Irrelevant.
Fair use? Not applicable.
But I changed the original product? Irrelevant.

> Personal use? Irrelevant.

Not true. Want to make a photocopy of a book, go right ahead, it is fair use to make a backup copy. But no printer is going to do it for you. Don't ever try selling it.

I always come to TMP for my legal advice. Best of all, it's FREE! And worht every penny.

We have several TMPers who are practicing attorneys in this field, by the way.
Every time they tried to post what the LAW says about it, they got shouted down by the "BUT I WANT IT!!!!" experts. They have given up trying to educate the un-educatable. It's a waste of time.

What it invariably boils down to in these cases, whatever you want to do, you can't. Deal with it and grow up, and stop acting like a 5 year old in the candy lane at the supermarket. Mommie should have slapped you out of those tantrums decades ago.

Want to make a photocopy of a book, go right ahead, it is fair use to make a backup copy.

The whole book? No, it's not.

It can only be fair use to make a backup copy of anything if the rights holder has given his express permission to allow you to copy it.

Fair use for review purposes, or for educational license are different, but if you are not reviewing or using the work in an educational setting do not worry about the get outs these concessions provide.

I might not be a lawyer, but I have some UK legal training, and for a while held a certificate.

I can also say that many things that are held as IP, have not been challenged in court, and if you had plenty of money you could go after the big names and challenge them (you might not win – but that would not stop you taking them to court)

Rights can be transferred, sold, be apportioned etc, the sculptor or creator, or even the artist or original manufacturer of the copied item (such as the real shipbuilder in these cases, or the designer employed) may have some residual right depending on contract.

I have been told by a lawyer working for the UK govt, that I can build as many models of a spitfire and sell them, and no one can stop me, but if I make a model of a London Black cab, or a VW beetle, well I have to get permission from the manufacturer.

Some tanks are protected by IIP law, and models of these vehicles are technically illegal, but I do not expect that the Companies are that bothered by a wargaming model.

So it is still no!

It does vary slightly from country to country, but from the UK:

Fair dealing for non-commercial research or private study

(Note that if it is for commericial purposes the answer is not without permission)

Since the law does not clearly define the amount of original material that can be copied, the Society of Authors issued the following guidance in 1965:

- one article from any one issue of a journal (even if that one article is the whole issue)

- one chapter or up to 5% (whichever is the greater) of a book or similar publication

- up to 10% of a short book of up to 200 pages (Library Association guidelines)

- one poem or short story of up to 10 pages from an anthology, or

- the report of one case in law reports

Not true. Want to make a photocopy of a book, go right ahead, it is fair use to make a backup copy.

Popular myth. As I was taught it, there is no provision in US Fair Use doctrine for an individual copying an entire book, under any circumstance.

Speaking as a practising lawyer who dabbles in IP from time to time, legally it is clearly wrong. Until the creator is loooooooong ago dead, it's still copyright.

But the fact is, no-one is going to sue you for it.

So it just boils down to whether you personally think it's morally wrong to do it or not.

ps. FWIW re the 'does a sculptor own the copyright of a figure sculpted illegally' question – I've just had a chat with an IP specialist (it's amazingly difficult to discuss it whilst hiding the fact that you're essentially about toys) and the gist of it is that unless that sculptor has created some particularly novel addition that can be stripped away from the underlying third party IP, he doesn't actually own any design rights in that figure. So to copy an infringing figure, you'd need to get the permission of the ultimate IP rights holder (so fat chance).

Basically, if you create an entire figure and stick the hand of a commercial figure on it you are breaching copyright. Each bit of it covered by copyright.

How about when you take a photo of that figure and distribute it in the internet?
You are in essence making a digital copy of that figure and giving it away for free without permission.

Do the IP rights of figure sculpting ever go to the public domain?

So what happens when another company buys a miniatures company and discards the molds for some of the lines/ranges?

Presumably because they already had their own line that covered that range and didn't want to keep both in production.

Matter of fact, for one company I know of someone who bought the rights to a companies lines and would like to resurrect the discarded ranges by creating new masters from existing figures. Did the fellow acquire rights to discontinued lines with his purchase?

Wrong or illegal? Much different answers. The first is really only up to you to decide because what you feel is right or wrong is going to differ from what the next guy thinks.

Goragrad, whether or not rights to old masters were also transferred will depend on the contract. If IP rights were transferred and the new owner has deliberately taken them out of production, possibly to prevent conflict with an existing range, that is their right.

Copying and casting without permission of the current owner of the IP rights infringes their copyright. To do so would be both morally wrong, whatever justification you try to attach to it, and technically illegal.

Cuchulainn I know Cameron and his son, I can ask them for you if you wish if they still have any

Cuchulainn

send me an email of what you want, I have been in contact with Cameron and he has a load of them lying about

send an email to TORROS60@hotmail.com

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my OP.

I did track down one of the men who designed models for the Ensign range, and he would have had no objections to me copying them for my own use. The other designers have so far remained elusive.

Mind you, it's all likey to be irrelevant now as Steve W has offered to help me get some of the models from Cameron.

Steve, I'll send you an email later tonight.

No Worries mate

Not sure what he has got mind you , I was talking to his son on facebook and he happened to be at Camerons and said he had some stuff still in boxes

UK copyright law

"6.Duration of copyright
The 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act states the duration of copyright as;
i.For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies.

If the author is unknown, copyright will last for 70 years from end of the calendar year in which the work was created, although if it is made available to the public during that time, (by publication, authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.), then the duration will be 70 years from the end of the year that the work was first made available."