"Roman Army for the Time of Constantine the Great " Topic

Hello Everyone!

I need some advice… What 28mm figures are best suited for the time of Constantine the Great?

Thanks!

Thinking these are the ones you are looking for: link

Damon.

Musketeer Miniatures, Gripping Beast, Foundry and Essex all do suitable ranges. If you don't mind doing conversions then you can squeeze some auxilia and legionaries from the Warlord Games boxes of Imperial Roman foot plus their Vikings.

…also Black Tree are quite nice and good value in their sales.

Simon

Thanks everyone!

Here is part of what's causing my problem…I'm just now learning about the time of Constantine the Great (regnal years 306 to 337). The miniatures I've looked at, and you've mentioned, cover the period right before Constantine's reign or a 100+ years after it.

I really like Musketeer Miniatures but when I went to their site it said this about their Late Romans: "This range of 28mm figures covers the fall of the Roman Empire in the West and the rise of Early Byzantium in the East. The figures are suitable for all Late Roman periods, from Romano-British, The fall of Rome itself from the Barbarian invasions through to the Justinian Wars in the East".

IIRC the Romano-British period is from 43 AD to about 410 AD but is generally considered the begining of the Arthurian period. The fall of the Roman Empire in the West and the rise of Early Byzantium in the East took place was between the mid to late 400s AD thru the mid to late 500s (unless you count the transferre of the eastern capital from Nicomedia in Asia Minor to Byzantium (mid 300s AD). The Justinian Wars took place between the mid to late 500s AD.

I then looked at the A&A site and it said: "These figures are suitable for wargaming in the periods of the Emperor Gallienus 260 AD to the Emperor Maxentius 312 AD and replicates the Roman Mobile Field Army of the time".

While looking at the other site they all seem to look like the minis offered by Musketeer Miniatures.

The A&A minis are closer in time period but the variety of minis – especially foot – is very limited.

Based on the limited books I have it seems like all the other minis from the other manufacturers are a mish-mash of uniform styles that run the gamut from the 400s AD to the begining of the Arthurian (Romano British) period.

I had thought of mixing A&A with some of the others but it just dosen't seem right.

Is this one of those time when you just choose something and call it good?

Seems that way. I've been looking at various figures for a late Roman Army. I already have some Foundry Infantry I picked up on E-Bay cheap. We are using the Armati 2 lists for Late Romans.
All the figures seem different and I'm not sure what really would mix well together.

These for instance, look good, but do they mix with Foundry infantry?

auction

I think most gamers use the late Roman ranges for Constantine. I believe that, on the whole, one would struggle to establish clear differences between uniforms in 310 and 400 or even 450.

A&A have 2 Roman ranges and you'd want the 4th century range, but BTDs or similar larger late Romans would, I think, blend in nicely with these.

There was a good deal of chaos in the later Empire and, I'd imagine, a great deal of variety in uniform and gear… so a good opportunity to mix different ranges and include some anachronisms.

Cheers, Simon

Thanks guy!

Hey BigRedBat… I have been reading your blog. I noticed you mentioned the A&A minis look better in your hand than on the page. The pictures on their page really turmed me off but the ones you painted look great!

Beside BTD – what minis would you suggest to mix with A&A? How about Musketeer Miniatures?

I'm torn between the time of Constantine and later Romans. Which do you prefer?

I'd use a mixture of different miniatures- Black Tree, A&A, Muskateer, Crusader and Gripping Beast- all pretty much compatible. I would do one army to suit both periods, as the gear is very similar (I can't think of any differences, off the top of my head).

The Foundry minis are lovely, but somewhat smaller.

Here are some size comparison shots (pre-Muskateer I'm afraid):-

link

Cheers, Simon

Thanks Simon. In your opinion Muskateer should work fine with Black Tree, A&A, Crusader and Gripping Beast?

I don't have any Muskateer yet, but I have heard they do…

Cheers, Simon

Thanks!

Neat question, and one I've pondered myself, as I am assembling a small Late Roman army…… I'm keeping basing options as 'open' as possible, in hopes a 'Late Roman' SAGA supplement will soon appear……

One thing it seems to me anyone has to get past is the anachronistic view one can get by 'mirror-imaging' changes in equipment a modern 'industrial age' army can effect in a few years (say a decade) onto the Roman army in the 3rd to 5th Centuries (or any 'state' or kingdom), and what they could effect in a generation or longer. For example, in the 3rd Century 'some-when,' 190,000 or so legionaries (5500 x 35 legions) just didn't all report to their fortress armory one day (or over about 10 days) to all hand in their Imperial-Gallic model helmets and draw out new Buch-style 'heavy' helmets. Assuming they even were all so re-equipped, I wonder how long it took the 'negotiators' of the various cities engaged in the weapons trade to have their workers/slaves crank out 190,000 such helmets???? The 17-odd-thousand cavalry of those same 35-odd legions didn't hand in their old helmets in a short burst for 'Burg Castle' style helmets either… And who can say with any certainty when exactly the third-century helmets were subsequently phased out in favor of the so-called 4th Century 'Intercisa' style helmets?

In the same fashion, 190,000 'dudes' just didn't walk in and hand over their 'lorica segmentata!!' Okay, 90 or 100,000-odd, if you subscribe to the notion that the 'eastern' legions never adopted the 'segmentata' but continued to wear 'chain mail' as being better protection against Parthian arrows…

I am going for an army based loosely on the 'middle' of the 4th Century (ca. 325-375); when the army, especially under Constantine, still campaigned across the Rhine & Danube to teach the 'Germans' a lesson in 'what for!!' Even under his successors, like Julian, that army could still defeat twice their number of 'barbarians.' In building it, I don't have a problem with using as a baseline about 60-70% Wargames Foundry figures, to which I plan to 'salt in' around them a 'handful' of Gripping Beast and Musketeer figures… I think they'll be just fine.

One thing it seems to me anyone has to get past is the anachronistic view one can get by 'mirror-imaging' changes in equipment a modern 'industrial age' army can effect in a few years (say a decade) onto the Roman army in the 3rd to 5th Centuries (or any 'state' or kingdom), and what they could effect in a generation or longer

This is a very good point. It is highly likely that changes were quite gradual and that there were local variations. From what we can tell Lorica Segmentata gradually dropped out of use in the 3rd C and probably never really caught on in the east where both scale and mail were more common. Helmet styles also varied. The Spangenhelm styles seemed to be of Danubian origin so may have been quite common at the end of the third century up to the time of Constantine and beyond when the bulk of good Roman troops were of Illyrian origin. The mobile field army would have been resupplied from a variety of locations so I can imagine quite a bit of variation within any given unit whereas garrison troops would have been more uniform. I address this issue in more detail in my Osprey Late Roman Infantryman book.
For what it is worth here is my interpretation of a veteran 4th century unit with a combination of spangenhelms and ridge helmets, some replacement shields picked up off the battlefield and a mix of scale and mail armour with some unarmoured back rankers. It represents two units of Auxilia Palatina which were raised by Constantine and were deployed in pairs. The figures are all Foundry by the way – with various head swaps.

Simon

I would go with Simon's recommendations, they are in all honesty possible the closest interpretations to what the Roman Army of this period lookied, fought and organised like.

Beautiful figures by the way Simon :) , certainly better than my old Minifig and Hinchcliffe collection :( One day I will love to replace my current Late Roman Army with the fantastic current 28mm figs…