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"Italian Wars: Cerignola 1503 set up - looks kinda good" Topic


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1,983 hits since 27 Oct 2012
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Comments or corrections?

olicana27 Oct 2012 10:52 a.m. PST

Hi guys, I've just posted the part 1 of my Cerignola 1503 (Gonsalvo Vs Nemours) scenario.

link

Part 1 includes background, deployments, OOBs and some more pics (some close ups) like this one.

picture

Mako1127 Oct 2012 10:59 a.m. PST

"Kinda good"?

Looks superb to me!!!

Ah, if only I had a painted Italian Wars army, or three…..

idontbelieveit27 Oct 2012 12:14 p.m. PST

Looks awesome!

Skeptic27 Oct 2012 12:46 p.m. PST

Amazing! Which rules are you going to use?

Marslatour27 Oct 2012 3:23 p.m. PST

Superb…more pics…more pics..please!

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Oct 2012 5:43 p.m. PST

Your "Spanish" order of battle ommits the rather large unit of Landsknechts that formed the center of the Spanish battle (almost a third of the total army) and was the most likely reason why the Swiss could not roll over the Spanish as before. This tactic of "combined" Spanish/Imperial forces would result in many victories over the next decades, most famous La Motta and Bicoccia (reading Oman/Taylor you will again get the impression that Landsknecht were not there or played no central part).

Oman and Taylor love to ignore the Landsknechts, either due to a lack of sources or (my guess) due to anti-German bias – post WW1 a pretty common phenomenon – thus they are sadly unreliable in such aspects. Many other works do copied ommissions. Go for Mallet/Shaw for a better OOB.

Sorry, had to say this. The table und units look spectacular, and are a joy to behold :-)

olicana28 Oct 2012 12:53 p.m. PST

Puster, please do not apologise.

I do have that in one source, it is possibly de Gaury. However, I will look into it with an open mind. Perhaps, before the game is played I will do an edit.

There is a chance, of course, that the landsknechts might have provided the pike for the colunelas – Gonsalvo was very short of pikemen early in the war.

Best Regards,

James

olicana28 Oct 2012 1:25 p.m. PST

Hi Puster, do you have numbers, I have 7 regiments [Gaury] – whatever that means?

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Oct 2012 2:15 p.m. PST

Afaik Mallets "Italian wars" mentions some 2000 Landsknechts, but I would have to recheck the actual book (away from me right now).
A usual Landsknechts-Fähnlein/Band would be between 200-500 (~500 being the recruiting optimal strength of later years, with numbers dwindling in campaings) 7 "regiments" sound realistic. These were not freshly recruited bands. I have to check wether they were on "loan" from Imperial forces (like 1512, when the French got some Landsknechts, eg. for the siege of Brescia) or just hired.

On another note, I am not sure wether the French light cavalry are Stradiots. It may be that these are Ordonnance Archers or other troops at this point, but I have no source to back this up from memory – as far as I remember the sources leave this open. I have to check Potters France Renaissance at war, wether he has information when Stradiots got used.

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Oct 2012 2:49 p.m. PST

Sometimes its good to see the events from different perspectives. Here is the account of the climax from the French and Spanish wikipedia-page (translated by Bing with rework by me):

"The rest of the French army came into action, and although the Spanish artillery was brutally shattered by the explosion of its munitions-reserve, the infantrymen are decimated by arquebus fire. Spanish arquebusiers end not be threatened by the advance of the French infantry and must withdraw, to leave the field open to the German Pikemen, who eventually repel the attackering Swiss and Gascon."

link
Both the French and Spanish Wikipedia give a number of 2500 Landsknechts (allied infantry).

Note the absence of Swiss in this short abstract :-)

The Spanish version of the climax is here:
"French infantry then engaged in combat with the Spanish troops, but they were decimated by the incessant fire of Arquebusiers. The head of Swiss Pikemen, Chadieu, was also killed. When the proximity of the French infantry was too dangerous for the Arquebusiers, the Spanish general ordered them to retire while he ordered the German Pikemen to advance, who fought in combat closed the Swiss and Gascon, rejecting them finally."


Both sites also give good information on the deployment of the troops – neither mentions Stradiots but both talk of "Light cavalry". The translation from Spanish to English is far better then the French, but with a bit patience both are readable.

On another but related note, its interesting to see how different the same events are perceived in different nations – the selective availabilty of sources in their own language certainly plays a good deal here, though wishfull and selective reading might, too. No that I am proof against this :-)

olicana28 Oct 2012 3:28 p.m. PST

Thanks Puster, according to Gaury:

The Landsknechts were sent by Maximilian.

They were raised in the hills and were considered tough men even by the standards of the time.

They were so respected by their Spanish comrades that the Spanish infantry would gladly give up pay and personal possessions to keep them happy – they seem to have become very integrated.

I'm not proof against bias either, especially if selective reading from multiple sources makes for a better / more balanced wargames scenario. I'm afraid I fall into the "I play with toy sodiers, it's just a game" catagory. When it comes to books on historical battles I view them, from a wargaming perspective at least, as lazy man's scenario books.

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Oct 2012 4:24 p.m. PST

No problem with that attitude – its a game, not a historical study :-)

I will have to get hold of the Gaury book (currently there is only one used for $80 USD on amazon – I will wait) to add it to my references. I have not found the bit about Maximilian sending this particular contingent otherwhere, though I knew that the Spanish cause was supported by him (or rather, the French cause opposed – as he was married to a Sforza and regularly meddled in Italian affairs – northern Italy being nominally part of his Empire).

I had references that the Spanish army was retrained with the aid of Imperial veterans after their early defeats, but could not track these down to any contemporary source yet – perhaps Gaury will help.

olicana29 Oct 2012 7:33 a.m. PST

Hi Puster,

I searched for many, many months for a copy of The Grand Captain at a reasonable price (mostly they are £50.00 GBP+). I was lucky. A signed copy, (to Diana, 14:7:55) with a critical press release of the publication pasted into the front, came up on ebay. I got it for £2.00 GBP plus postage – BARGAIN. I wish you similar luck.

BTW: I've revised OOB and deployments.

Thanks,

James

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