"Air Support in 28mm games" Topic

I am considering if this would be a good idea to have 1/72nd scale aircraft jets not helicopters rather than 1/48th scale to represent airpower in 28mm games. This way i feel that the smaller aircraft will give an impression of being more distant, highter altitude as well as being more cost effective on my wallet if wishing to have a couple of three strike aircraft giving close air support to my forces. Also at this scale it would allow the third dimension to be represented without needing a HUGE games table if using 1/48th scale aircraft. Does anyone think this a silly idea and indeed has anyone else had similar thought.

I would like to get some Pucara aircraft and Skyhawks for my Falklands War stuff and 1/72 seems to cater for this better than 1/48.

AC

I think it would look fine. Personally, I am going to use 1/300 scale with 15mm for the same reasons. Close air support would be kind of tricky in 28mm, though. Lots of opportunity for friendly fire on a small battlefield.

I am tempted too for the same thing - the 1/72 kits are way cheaper and more numerous.

The exception might be helicopters as they spend a lot of the game on the ground...

Scale of the models is less important to me than modeling the scale of the close air support -- how close is danger close, and how much table area will CAS attacks cover? In the real world bombs and such cover BIG areas with ahrapnel and blast effects, much more than I'd care to game in 28mm.

"much more than I'd care to game in 28mm"

That's my concern in 28mm too. The blast effects would be just horrendous for both sides. The other thing that would be dicey would be response time. If the mission is called during play, depending upon the time scale used, it could be that the mission never even arrives.

I could see, though, not even representing the aircraft at all and just use them as a pre-game barrage effect, before troops have a chance to get close to each other.

Seems to me that regardless of the model scale, that a strike aircraft would have to move suicidally slow to be on the largest table for even a half turn. I wouldn't worry too much about having a model at all.

And I also agree that given circle of error probable (CEP) of a bomb and its immense blast effect, that gaming the dropping of one on a 28mm tabletop seems extreme. Any point on table is going to be at risk for serious damage from an air dropped bomb accounting for the inaccuracy of the drop and the size of the burst.

Still, if I was going to use airpower in 28mm game and did want to have a model on the table I would certainly use 1/72 or smaller scale models.

"The blast effects would be just horrendous for both sides."

It's just a game jiz. ;)

Bob, I'd be interested to see how this pans out for you. I agree it'd be cheaper on the wallet, but if it looks weird on the table then it may not be worth all the hassle building smaller kits. I'll wait and see some pics (should someone decide to go this route) and see how it looks first. Meantime I'll stick with my 1 or 2 1:48 kits.

-B6

You don't get it, B6. It's just physics and chemistry -- bombs explode and fill the area with debris, and that stuff goes a long way. In 28mm a wargaming table is not a vast expanse of ground, and it is very likely the figures on the table are within (or well within) the danger area from those bombs.

As for me, I'd rather have gunships overhead, shooting direct-fired weapons in support, when it is being shot that close to my troops. When I call in aircraft, they will be tareted at threats farther away than the span of a table. YMMV.

It's just a game, but you ought to play it as if you are there, as if you care what happens under the bombers' path...

I only intend to use aircraft to drop off re-enforcments(helicopters) or to be static target (i.e. SAS raid on the Argentine base at Pebble Island) so they will be 1/48 as they are essentially scenery for me.

Geez I am still non the wiser for all these words of wisdom. Definately 1/48th scale Helicopters as they will represent moving troops forward backwards (and upwards) so feel these as they are in up close and personal should be the same scale near as dam it.

Planes, 6ft x 4ft table wooosh and they gone even on a 8 x 6 table its all but the same at 28mm the planes are too big and too fast even a prop driven ground attack is pretty nippy. Thing I consider is we all seem to use off table artillery so can we not use off table jets ??? Even better on your pocket thats way.

Just very undecided but like some of the planes out there and want an excuse. I even considerd Airfix 1/600 scale ships for in Port San Carlos :o/ Maybe I am being totally ludicrous there!!

For now I will stick with the helos and miniatures and continue to ponder this dilema, hopefully then a 1/48 Pucara will appear on the market and solve my problems.

Bob

I always liked the Battletech Classic system for air support. Strafing runs ran the entire length of the board, with a chance of each model in the strafing zone having a chance of being hit. The BT system was hex based so although it limited the number of actual approaches, it was easy to play out the aerial combat on a smaller map as realistic or as abstract as the players wanted.

The Strafing "zones" should be easy to designate by using a length of terrain material with two tall poles sticking up on the ends. Just place two of these at opposite ends of the table perpendicular to the strafing run, every model located in the invisible box was effected.

"You don't get it, B6. It's just physics and chemistry "

Cpt Arexu: Oh, I think he gets it; he was just giving me a rough time for being so darned practical. Which, I think, mirrors your own position.

"Thing I consider is we all seem to use off table artillery so can we not use off table jets ???"

I think we can (and I would) use "off table" jets.

That settles pretty much all your modeling issues. It leaves the bomb deviation/huge burst radius problem. But in a modern game a small guided bomb may be controlable enough to game on 6x8 table. Still I would look more at using strafing or guided missles. If gaming a laser guided system, have figures for an on-table designator team. That would seem more realistic and also makes for interesting gaming.

For our CIB rules, I took the tact that airstrikes and artillery were always considered 'Danger Close' as even the largest table is still too short for practical purposes. At first, and due to some of the points brought up here, I wasn't even going to consider adding them to the game, but airstrikes and artillery strikes do happen well within the comfort zone on occasion.

The rules compromise was to use them as a pregame effect for the most part with an option for players to use them in the game just as long as they realize that the entire table is 'in the box' and danger close! I had to recognize that there are times where you've got to call the fires in close do subdue the enemy or help just like Captain Rubio did in Vietnam when he called in airstrikes on Vietnamese positions only 20 meters away from his lines.

Larry

Just as a side note, DBM uses reduced scales for naval vessels.

"Naval elements use models of reduced scale. This can be rationalised as them being seen at a distance by men on shore."

"If figure scale is: 25m 15mm *6mm 2mm The largest recommended naval scale is 15mm 6mm 1/600 1/1200."

"It's just a game, but you ought to play it as if you are there, as if you care what happens under the bombers' path..."

Umm... okay.

-B6

After all my umm'ings and ahhh'ings I have opted for the 1/48th way forward but with a caveat. Its a game and they are only models representing what was used, I dont intend winning competitions with them so I will save my coin by going on ebay for them. if they are there and cheap then i may get them. Priority however is bayonets !!

Bob

Bob and his bayonets! LOL!

"Oh, I think he gets it; he was just giving me a rough time for being so darned practical."

You're correct jizbrand! ;) I envy the practical mind sometimes.

-B6

Got me a Skyhawk and a Harrier onroute to this location, both in 1/48th scale. Hobby crafts skyhawk comes with ooddles of bombs of various sizes. Cool, can have me some unexploded bombs for Vietnam boobytraps etc etc!

Bob

I wouldn't bother using air support in a 28mm game, especially a skirmish one.

However, if you want to get some planes on the table, you can always have them grounded and as scenario objectives. How about a night time commando raid on an enemy airport, with the purpose to blow up as many planes as possible - or even to capture a helicopter and fly away with it in a highly cinematic style!

Griefbringer

A Pebble Island style Raid ?? cool

When we game airstrikes (usually in 15mm groundscale), at the designated time of arrival, we place the aircraft at one edge of the table facing along their attack vector. Anyone in the strike corridor is at risk unless the aircraft is firing a guided weapon with a target designator on the ground to assist.

The aircraft is given its one attack and is gone. It may return again if it still has ordinance and hasn't been chased off/shot down.

"If gaming a laser guided system, have figures for an on-table designator team. That would seem more realistic and also makes for interesting gaming."

While it would be more interesting, most aircraft today using LGBs self-lase. Targeting pods have become more accurate than ground laser designators (GLDs).

I use 1:48 scale diecast aircraft (both jets and helicopters) in my 28mm games and I must say they are expensive, hard to find, extremely heavy, hard to mount on stands for the tabletop, and generally a pain in the ass. They do, however, look really good. I think 1/72nd would work, though, and I'd give it a try before laying out the cash needed to get 1/48 working, especially if the models are hard to find. (Franklin Mint makes a nice range, but they're $90 each or something.)

Yes, air support covers huge amounts of the tabletop with pretty deadly munitions - fuel-air explosives are particularly devastating. We usually counter this with having rules of engagement that penalize the players for doing things like dropping cluster munitions on civilians. (Most of our games are modern Africa peace-keeping scenarios where this is realistic).

Cheers,

A Gregory

Ive used 1/72 scale models that I suspended from the ceiling, to represent aircraft in the CAS stack. They were for all intents and purposes "off table artillery." But they looked cool, and the Hornets and Harriers hanging over the table visually offset the "hordes" of enemy T-72s…

My ceiling was the 'drop ceiling' type with acquistic tiles suspended on metal 'rails.' I used the rails to suspended the aircraft. Fishing line, with a magnet on the end, allowed you to easily attach the diecast aircraft, which basically served as a counter for the number of aviable sorties. I veried the lenghts of the fishing line to improve the look.