"Battlegroup Kursk - More info!" Topic

I agree with Caesar that no game is perfect. This IMO is the holy grail for ruleswriters. If the perfect game was found then we wouldn't have all the choice we have at the moment.

The fact that we have so much choices enriches the hobby for me and also empties the wallet .

Piers i pre-ordered the rules when they were first announced, But have yet to receive them. Who should i contact?

Contact Will at PSC here;

info@theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk

Pre-orders with the free StuG sprue only went out this week as the StuG sprue was only ready last weekend.

A fantastic set of rules!

We written with lots of clear instructions and a good balance with pictures and text. And for £30.00 GBP I ain't going to complain. If you thing SAGA (another cracking game) is the same price as BGK but third of the size then it's a good deal.

Well done Piers et al

I bought the book.. yes it is expensive, but I'm happy with my purchase..I read the rules and I think I like them, they have some interesting new ideas.. I also had bought KGN, I think the layout is better in this one..

I'm looking forward to actually trying the rules..

congrats to the people that have worked on them… I do hope you guys will release supplents for other periods.. maybe you can do some pdfs ? I would love early war…
And if one day you guys decide to try moderns I would love that as well…

good luck
Francisco

Glad to hear you guys like it. Its been a long time developing but I think Warwick got alot of things right with this book. But we hope to improve with each release. The Blitzkreig book is due Q2 2014… Fingers crossed.

There will be plenty of books, some smaller ones too and some free downloads when we get the chance to do them.

Currently Normandy is underway, followed by Fall of the Reich to clear out late-war Europe. We also want to do a mini-rulebook too.

After that, its Blitzkreig as I said, and we do have plans for after that but the 'running' order is a bit less formalised. We have North Africa, Italy, Barbarossa and Far East all on the drawing board along with a 'Cold War 1946' book idea and an expansion into a more traditional 1980s Cold War setting.

Lots to look forward too in the future.

I have to say I agree with those who feel the initial book just opens the way for endless supplements that keep the money rolling in.

Surely 237 pages is enough for a set of rules covering the whole war and sufficient vehicle/infantry stats to cover the whole war as well? Do we really need detailed army lists? Anyone remember when rulebooks had 30 pages and covered the whole ancients period, or the whole of WW2?

If this set was the whole thing in one book I'd be tempted. But I'd feel a mug buying it and then waiting for the supplements for my periods.

I agree. 237 pages are more than enough if you don't fill half of them with glossy eye candy (which we are told is the only way the present generation of gamers will buy them!)

Well guys, the simple answer is not to buy it then if it doesnt appeal to you.

As with all thngs in life, people want different things.

I like to think that we have moved on from the old typewriter written style rulebook.

Likewise I don't want to swap my Plasma TV for an old tube style black and white TV either.

I would like to see all the supplements to the standard of BGK and bettered if possible.

I haven't seen a 'typewriter written style rulebook' for 20 years or more. But I do have several modern, very professionally produced publications. Please tell me what is this "standard of BGK" that makes all others obsolete? I'm still open to persuasion!

I played my first game of BGK the other day.. I loved it.. I thought it was very original and really different to most other WWII games that I've tried recently ( in a good way )…

I cannot wait to play it again… I congratulate you guys on a great product.. I really wish you would release some more army lists on pdf, maybe the ones that are too far down the line like early war…

BTW: I was Russian and defeated my german opponent through good luck and by taking advantage that though is panthers were way tougher than my T-34s I had many T-34s and the rules on ammo meant he had to be careful so while the tank battle ensued my infantry took control of the objectives..

Really nice set of rules.. I guess it will be one my ongoing games for 2013 !!!

cheers
Francisco

Good stuff Francisco!

Good rules badly written!

My copy has finally been shipped! Looking forward to getting it this week. Very nice Xmas gift for myself (along with FOF books and some toys to paint up).

I've still got 8 sleeps to go before I can read my copy!!!!!!

So near, yet so far. :-)

We have BGN and are considering BGK but have these questions after a few games of BGN:

1) What are the differences?
2) Is there a summary or can we just get a conversion sheet (buying another expensive rule book has been a huge objection)
3) Will the army lists in BGN at least still work in BGK?

What we liked about BGN:
1) Command Control system
2) 20mm
3) To Kill matrix for armor

What we did not like:
1) Mass d6 rolling
2) Armor data copied from FOW and repeating its errors
3) Large clumsy rule book – very hard to use at the table
4) Not well adapted for multi-players
5) Morale chips (though ideas good)

House Fixes:
1) None (yet)
2) Fixed armor ratings (corrections: M10, JPzIV, Panther)
3) Make copies of relevant parts and made mini-rule book
4) Made everyone a Platoon commander with 1d6 (+1 for commander). Great change, everyone kept track of own command points.
5) May use poker chips – pondering

Would like to plunge into BGK but unsure of changes and not really motivated to buy another clumsy hard back rule book.

Any answers?

TomT

Certainly does sound like a money-spinner, this one! 237 pages and you can't cover the whole war? Do me a favour.

I am only 30 years old and I say this to preempt anyone accusing me of being a member of the les grognard camp. But (yeap there it is!), I grew up playing gam see with rules like DBM, Fire & Fury, Spearhead to name a few. All of these are fantastic rules which gave a great evenings entertainment (I've been going to my local club since I was about 13 or so). Now what do all these rules have in common? They are simple straight forward booklets and two of these sets are black and white booklets that deliver rules inexpensively with no tosh and nonsense that can frustratingly obscure the rules and make referencing a royal pain in the number!

So why oh why oh why do we have all these Games Workshop style rules in exponentially increasing amounts with about a thousand supplements each that cost the same price as the original rules book which wasn't cheap in the first place just have to stare at pr0-painted miniatures (hmm GW anyone?)and have to riffle through twoddle just to try and play a blooming game in a reasonable amount of time.

What has historically been proven is the best rules are the simplest rules that are easily accessible and in a simple format which therefore renders them inexpensive.

Do manufacturers who also publish their own rules not realise that the less we have to spend on rules and the one thousand supplements that we have to use for cross referencing, the more we have to spend on their miniatures.

If you need to publish a thousand supplements to rule book then don't bother publishing a rule book in the first place because the rules aren't good enough to handle a good game on their own.

Sorry BGK but you are the latest company to do this but there are far worse offenders out there (FoW, Fog, Black Powder etc etc) none of which I have nor will I ever buy.

I always find opinions like those of the above to be perplexing. By your standards, Rhysius, I could write a ruleset for, say, company-level WWII conflict with 15mm miniatures in a night and sell it for $1 USD, and that would make it instantaneously of a higher quality than the likes of BGK, FoW, and BA?

I've never understood this. What happened to not judging a book by its cover (and, in this case, literally doing just that)? If you have some sort of complaint about the actual ruleset – having to track the use of either AP or HE rounds in tanks, for example – that I can understand. But degrading a set of rules because they happen to look nice? This seems to be some sort of strange condition that only occurs in the wargaming hobby.

As to supplements, Rhysius, I almost have to toss out your opinion because you include Black Powder in your list of offenders. You also include DBM in your list of 'better' wargames. You'll have to excuse me if I'm incorrect about this, but doesn't that game use multiple books to contain all the army lists? There's also the scenario books for Fire and Fury (if I'm correct in assuming that we're both speak of the game produced by Battlefront). Aren't those also 'add-ons' not included in the original set of rules? And, if so, what makes these any different from the dreaded 'supplements' of other, apparently lesser, wargames?

I can, however, agree in some parts. The longer I play FoW, the more I see the reshuffling of older books and the strange changes being made to newer ones.

On the other hand, if spreading various conflicts across multiple supplements has some purpose, then I cannot see any viable complaints. Field of Glory's books are cheap individually, and unless you happen to have enough models to play in every era, you don't need to buy them all (and if you DO have enough models to play in every era, I don't think money is a concern). For the Battlegroup series, I currently have no interest in anything to do with the Eastern Front, so I can at least appreciate that a book meant specifically for an area of conflict I do have an interest in (i.e., Normandy) is coming.

And, quite simply, there is the eye candy. If someone where to express an interest in wargaming, I wouldn't pull out my copy of This Very Ground, or my Lulu-produced Cold War Commander, or Battles in the Age of War. Instead, I'd show them Black Powder or Tomorrow's War, with their lavish pictures showing off the best of what our hobby can produce.

Infinite array- yes you could write a ruleset and sell it for £1.00 GBP and if you ignore everything else I said then yes it would be a success! So a non-argument there.

DBM used four supplements (separate army lists from the CORE rules and the cost combined was less than the price of BGK.So again a non-argument.

0 for 2 my friend.

Right, next so actually you agree with me – could have just said that in the first place.

Money is always concern regardless of size of bank account. What a ridiculous statement. If you have spent years collecting figures and can field armies from multiple periods does that mean you don't have the right to comment on value for money??? Do alot of gamers not have several different collections for different periods.

Next up its the informed decision making process that most people use nowadays and one of the reasons for TMP's very existence. Yes, that's right, it's the sharing of information including reviews which people usually read in order to do research before committing to a hefty spend on a new set of rules. Revolutionary I know but it can help to save money and time on yet another rule set.

If someone were to express an interest then…

No I wouldn't either, I'd spend my time quickly setting up a game with an easily accessible ruleset for an entertaining, easy, quick flowing game such as DBM just as someone did with me in the first year I joined my local wargaming club which eventually saw me collect armies from several different periods – oh my god I must be a gazillionaire!!! And I didn't even know it! Huh!

Basically if you're gonna attempt to patronise someone you will definitely need to get up earlier!

Right, I'm off to spend my gazillions.

Goodnight.

Are 'national characteristics' not 'special rules' then Tim? ;)

Also the books not large cos of photos, but due to the rules, army lists, stats, scenarios, historical background and painting tutorials.

As you say, some prefer this approach, others dont.

You cant please everyone, though we do have a cheap paperback mini rulebook due in April.

The mini rule book would certainly be handy for taking to the game as a handy reference. Will this be updated to include the bits that have needed tweeking ?

Tweaking?

If you mean will it have the errata and clarifications included, then yes. We have tried to include as mauch as we can that has come to light since release and will have a couple of our Beta testers proof it before release to make sure we havent missed anything.

Now I have said that… We probably will miss something!

Thanks Piers.

Probably used the wrong choice of word in my post ie tweaking .

Yes I meant clarifications but thats a long word for me on Mondays.

But yes the game doesn't really need tweaking IMO as every thing seems to run smoothly in the games i have played.

Thomas, Thomas – interesting. Care to share your M10, JPzIV, Panther corrections?

Al

I find that the detail, background, pictures, play testing, scenarios, discussion, special rules, support from Iron Fist link with free downloads, and advice on painting for each book do well for my needs as gamer.

I play this game occasionally, and in 28mm. I hope to play more if the guys can get into it. It is a little more expensive the 20mm, but I've been collecting terrain for almost 20 years. Though at times I wish I stayed at 20mm, the aesthetics of 28mm cannot be denied, though in the books the 20mm terrain and models pictured are top notch.

Any issues I had with the game, fell to the wayside…once….I…actually…played…the….game.

There may be mild opinion differences with rules or perspective on history, but nothing I would try and change, expect the price. Maybe Iron Fist could consider watermarked Pdf downloads to save on the expense of the hardback book with color pictures, or consider a cheaper release option with paperback, and black on white. I still purchased all the books, anyway ( I just got the new pre-order for Barbarossa and Blitzkrieg ) .

Whatever my opinion with certain aspects of the rules are or the cost, or whatever in may be, the flow of the game with all the supporting materials, make up for any of it, and are not worth bringing up.

It is a first class game system.

Thanks dude, glad you like it.

Is Battle group Kursk likely to be reprinted? I'm not really after a pdf.

What's the next book on the list to be completed?

Unlikely to see Kursk reprinted sadly.

Next books are a Bulge campaign book, in a slimmer format, and the next 'big' book is the first Desert War volume due in April.

Looking fwd to the Bulge book.

Haven't got into the Desert War….but better buy the book, for 'completeness'. :)

the next 'big' book is the first Desert War volume due in April.

Huzzah!!!!

Maybe I will be able to get the guys playing BG North Africa, they weren't interested in Normandy.

Bloody Hell – Desert War. No wonder I've got no money!

Finally getting around to this, figures painted, terrain almost sorted, just need the guys round. I hadn't seen this thread a few years back when we got the book, so I am glad I missed most of this. The rules seem quite interesting, and every blog/battle report I read suggests a good game. I can see why the book was so big, as the army lists are such an integral part of the game – do I take a medic or an extra T34, is the comms team a worthwhile addition to my off table artillery and so on. So I will be getting Overlord now, and hope it is even better in terms of eye candy and fluff, as that makes it a very interesting set of rules for me – as I learn the rules, I get to see what Piers and Warwick have set up. The painting guides are really good (would have liked infantry as well, but…), the potted history and scenarios/campaign all look good and I still hope to try out.

So all round satisfied.

After this, I will return to trying to get my 1/300 lrger scale game sorted – some great ideas from TMP recently. But 1/72 platoon/company games first.

Marc,

Some infantry guides in other books… But we are limited by space believe it or not! A lot more gets left out of the books despite their size!

Each book does get better in terms of eye candy, as we do try to make each look better than the last. Its fun for us and it pushes us both, me in terms of producing models and Warwick in terms of flexing his photoshop muscles!

Glad youre enjoying it, once you have Overlord, take a look at Wacht am Rhein, as its the new slimmer 'campaign guide' we have tried. We are very pleased with the format and if people like them, as additions to existing supplements, we will do more.

Though Fall of the Reich and Blitzkrieg remain my favourites of them all. :)

Thanks Piers. Not so keen on Ardennes but the early war appeals. Did you get your desert book out for Salute?

The FotR almost got me, but I think Overlord will give me a chance to do different stuff with Brits etc, rather than Russians.

And as I am one of those to whom eye candy really works – keep it up. I have been enjoying the battle reports like Bovington etc (memo to self – go to Bovington show this year)

Oh, and if you are looking for campaigns, something around Kharkov would be nice…

Kharkov could be cool…