"Battlegroup Kursk - More info!" Topic

Well its finally here and available to buy! Its on its way out to stockists and those who pre-ordered.

And prompted by a very interesting discussion on TMP, I have put a bit of (very) basic info up on my blog;

link

…and we also have a dedicated forum section for the Battlegroup games on The Guild;

link

…and if ya want to buy it, its here!

link

If you want to see more, such as AARs and the like, some are here on TMP and others are of course on the new 'Battlegroup' section of The Guild.

I hope that maybe of use to those looking for more information and if you have any questions Im happy to do my best to answer them!

Thats all from me on BGK, I hope the next stuff you see will be players reviewing it!

Cheers

Piers

Very interesting – thanks! I suspect like many gamers in Australia, and perhaps other more sparsely populated areas, I will be influenced by what other gamers in my 'neighbourhood' are up to…

Hi Piers, I must confess I never knew too much about KGN but I'm really liking your description of BGK… Really interested in the 'modes of fire' concept…I'm thinking of taking the plunge but I have large varieties of armies and terrain suited to western europe but none for the east …is this going to be a problem with the product as it stands? The title suggests Kursk and beyond…

John

The first book is the basic rules and lists for Kursk.

The second book will cover Normandy, that may suit your collection better.

We hope at some point to do a smaller 'rules-only' booklet but at present we dunno when that will be. Mid-next year is likely… But dont quote me on that!

So, I would have to buy both books even though I only play Normandy or western front games? I don't own any Russian forces. Or will you have the same core rules in the Normandy rules as well?

Just wondering. Thanks

No the core rules, initially, will only be in the Kursk book that has the rules and the Kursk supplement together.

Due to the amount of army lists in the Normandy book we cant fit the rules in as well, without making it too expensive to buy.

Its a bit of a double edged sword. Put the rules in every book and those buying them all complain they are paying for something they already have… Put them in one and people complain they have to buy a book they may not need to get the rules. Kinda damned if you do… Damned if you dont kinda thing.

So what we hope to make available, as mentioned above, is a 'mini-rulebook' containing just the rules. When that will be will kinda depends when we can fund its production.

I like the sound of these rules but am put off them by the "need" to buy multiple books. Why not get rid of, or minimise, the pretty pictures and put all the stats in one book so that those who neither want nor need army lists can play any period of WW2 without having to buy more books?

Perhaps I already know the answer to that.

Well there seems to be a desire Colin from alot of people that the 'eye candy' forms an integral part of the book, perhaps providing inspiration and added enjoyment to the book. Removing them would not significantly reduce price or page count(the pictures are generally on pages with rules filling up what otherwise be empty space – The rules try to keep each section on a page for ease of reference).

The size of the army lists would preclude fitting them all in one book, as even witout pictures the book would simply be too huge that the cost would be massive.

Ironfist do intend to do a seperate 'mini' rulebook, whether that will contain stats, Im not sure as my role is purely that of unpaid tester, but I shall ask if thats an option. Again to include them will add to the page count dramatically and increase costs.

Its a fine line that a designer has to tread and, sadly you can never appeal to all people when producing a set of rules.

Piers, Will PSC be the only distibutor? I am keen on ordering but PSC charge an additional 20% to send to South Africa. With the exchange rate as is it becomes a bit pricey.

Nope, a load of books have gone out to stockists.

I know Nick at Northstar Figures has some, and OMM in the USA have the book too.

Im afraid I cant remember any other stockists that may be closer/cheaper for shipping but drop Will at PSC an email, Im sure he will be happy to try and help you out.

Piers,

I suspect that, for many, a mini rulebook with comprehensive stats would be an attractive option.

It is indeed a fine line but there does seem to be a trend towards sets of rules with more pictures and "waffle" than actual rules, with Black Powder being possibly the most extreme example of this so far. Please note that I am not saying that BGK contains waffle.

Colin,

Dont worry I know what you mean. I hope the waffle-to-rules ratio of BGK aint too bad! ;-)

I think their is certainly a large group of gamers (and Im one) who do like their eye candy in a rulebook. I like the book to inspire me to greater efforts – Which is what KGN did for me. Of course the rules need to be solid too…

Im meeting with Warwick in a couple of weeks so I will discuss the mini-rule & stats idea with him. Cant promise anything, as its his baby, but I will bring it up for discussion.

The Book Depository were carrying BattleGroup Kursk at a considerable discount, and post free world wide….

link

Its now gone 'unavailable' again, they do this sometimes but it should come back again soon once the initial rush has died down…

Some thoughts:

1. Kampfgruppe Normandy is probably my favourite Wargames rule book of all time. Shame about the demise of Warhammer Historical.
2. KGN is about the most fun I've had with a WW2 wargame in a very long time and has got me collecting 20mm again.
3. The pics were/are inspiring.
4. I have no interest in, nor models for, the Eastern front (I now have Western front stuff in 4 scales…yes, I know…)

So, please do a separate small rule book with and I and many others will buy that and the Western Front book. It will also mean you can carry the rules around without needing to work out at the gym ; )

I've already purchased several well-known WWII rule sets, only to find I need to buy "supplements" to use half the stuff in my collection :(

I would by a small rule book, but not drop $50 USD plus shipping to look at photos of someone else's game set up. I can get all the inspiration I need from the photo gallery on TMP

Come back Charles Grant, all is forgiven!

Piers wrote: "Its a bit of a double edged sword. Put the rules in every book and those buying them all complain they are paying for something they already have… Put them in one and people complain they have to buy a book they may not need to get the rules. Kinda damned if you do… Damned if you don't kinda thing."

I see the choice of just putting out the core rule book wasn't mentioned, with additional books for each theater.

I'll just say I agree with alphus99 and nunmber4's posts, and save my money for now.

Well seperate books to start off with would have made the first release, for those wanting to do Kursk, very expensive. They would have to buy two books instead of one…

Also with no army lists some may not have just bought the rules if they felt they needed the lists and associated stats and scenarios.

Not my decision, but I imagine that was the rational.

Got my copy today and it looks great, but then I would say that as I have been playing it for a while!

This book is only for Kursk in '43?

The rules are for all of ww2, but the book contains stats, scenarios and army lists for Eatern Front 1943 as its second half.

What I have read of these rules is that they are top drawer. I think they will be challenging to both players for different reasons and the Russian Special rules – I just can't wait to try them.

Even if this game doesn't float your boat , just have a look at the quality of the book. I think many of you will be impressed.

Just my initial thoughts having bought the book.

Ahh, therein lies the rub, me thinks. Seems many, if not most, or today's gamers are looking for that eye candy aspect. I probably in a minority of with regards to not caring about that.

For the record, I wasn't questioning the quality of the rules themselves, just that to buy them, I have to pay for content (Kursk/Eastern Front) that I don't want or need. Even FoW doesn't make you do that :)

Well there in could lie another problem.

Just for the sake of it lets say the rules were released their own . You would then get those people who would say I don't want to buy the rules and then have to pay for a supplement to use the rules . Which every way it was done you arn't going to please everyone .

There are plans afoot to release a mini sized rules book but the timescales for this havn't yet been released.

But no one discusses the 3rd alternative, publishing the rules, with separate supplements for particular periods/fronts, etc..

However, this is all moot, as the book is done and out. For those who have awaited it, and whose interests it covers, I'm very glad for. For me, I'll just spend my coin on further miniatures, and learn the rules I already have, IABSM for 15's and Micro Armour/Squad: The Game for 6mm.

I did, I mentioned that 3rd option a few posts up Jim…

I am not saying anyone should rush out and buy the book becasue I happen to like it from what I read so far. But for those who are undecided just give it a look if you can at your local stockist . I certainly think it is worth a look IMO

As it happens, I have just read this review of bolt action which explains exactly what I am talking about

link

Entire pages are taken up with drawings from Osprey books, while others have as much as half the page devoted to photos of someone's nicely painted models. 50% of one page is devoted to a picture of an MG42 and two paragraphs of fan boy text about it!

Now maybe if all this space had been devoted to the actual rules, it wouldn't be necessary to spend even more money on half a dozen "supplements"….. I had seriously considered buying bolt action, but having seen this review, I am glad that I did not as to me (and only me), it represents poor value for money. YMMV

Due to the amount of army lists in the Normandy book we cant fit the rules in as well, without making it too expensive to buy.

But you can make it so you have to buy two books. Yeah, that will be cheaper for your customer.

Well it will be for those playing Kursk as well wont it Thomalley?

Also if the mini rulebook is out by then you could buy that.

Sadly you cant please everyone with what you produce. But reaction so far from those who have actually bought BGK is very positive.

Piers, my comment was that the 3rd option wasn't discussed. You didn't discuss it, just made statements.

Well seperate books to start off with would have made the first release, for those wanting to do Kursk, very expensive. They would have to buy two books instead of one…

If the above is the case, doesn't it follow that for those who don't want Kursk, having to buy it and a additional supplement make it even more expensive? The Kursk player only has to buy one book, the rest have to buy at least the Kursk book plus one additional one. Or wait till the mini rules book comes out, and buy 2 books then.

I almost envision someone involved sitting somewhere, whose favorite battle it Kursk, being totally puzzled that there is someone out there for whom it isn't. :)

I am taking a guess here but I wouldn't be surprised if I was wide of the mark.But this is my theory

As far as I know BGK was conceived well before the announcement that Warhammer Historical was to close. At the time plans were only there to provide an Eastern Front alternative for KGN .There were plans to broaded KGN and bring out supplements for other campaigns and theaters. The book actually says that somewhere becasue I have read it. However this all changed when Warwick left FW and WH adopted the no "support for our products policy" This apathy to support the game led to the development of BGK but at the time no plans for further supplements hence we have the rules and scenarios in one book. The change of plan seemed to coincide with the closure of WH and hence the announcemnt of further books in the Battlegroup series.

To conclude yes the Kursk players may only need to buy one book but that is down to the circumstances as above.

The others may need to buy 2 books one containing the rules and then the supplement which appears to be the norm these days. Another reason for this is that the supplemnts are likely to be much bigger in containing far more army lists. Don't forget Kursk was just one "small" campaign as in time span compared to say Normandy which lasted much longer, hence more army lists and scenarios.

TBH I do prefer the rulesbook "glossies" of today. And to confirm my vintage I still remember those rules like those produced by Wargames Reaeach Group which were done on a typewriter and line drawings were a rare occurrance. Whilst I have fond memories of these rules ,I also would like to think we have moved on a little.

Reading through this thread I can see there is no way that Warwick and co could have satisfied everybody, unless they produced a single set of rules which covered every part of the war in minute detail, but not too much detail as people would get bored; and had just the right amount of pictures (not too many, not too few) and was light enough to carry and also available as a pdf and all other digital formats even those not yet designed and was priced at a price that everyone thought was not too much or not to cheap.

And even then someone would probably moan as all they wanted was a set of rules to cover the one part of the war that they have figures for, or some other spurious reason

So as someone who has brought the book I just wanted to say I'm happy with the way they've done it as the rules are great and I can use my 15mm Russian stuff again (it's been gathering dust for a while) and when the Normandy book comes out I'll buy that as well as I have figures for that campaign.

and for everyone who's not happy well, I'm sure you have lots of other rules to use to play with so it's not the end of the world is it? or you can always just moan about the rules to anyone who'll listen to you and point out what they should have done instead, and next week when another set of rules come out you can moan about them instead

I'm now going to watch my stifle count grow as I'm sure I've upset someone

Cheers

Mike

As an extra piece of info, I interviewed Warwick about these rules last week, and I'm going to releasing a podcast with that interview plus a review at the end of October

Neil

Well, Mike, I for one wasn't upset by your post, but it did indicate a couple of things to me.

A) You, like many others, think every gamer out there can afford to buy all all the books and miniatures that come out. I'm glad you can, but for many, the budget may be too tight.

and for everyone who's not happy well, I'm sure you have lots of other rules to use to play with so it's not the end of the world is it? or you can always just moan about the rules to anyone who'll listen to you and point out what they should have done instead, and next week when another set of rules come out you can moan about them instead

B) Not one post in this thread has 'moaned' about the rules themselves, any 'moaning' has just been about how they are offered.

Jim F

Mysteron, thanks. Not being familiar with a lot of wargaming developments over the last several years, your explanation makes sense, even if it is mostly guess work, based on what you know.

Don't forget Kursk was just one "small" campaign as in time span compared to say Normandy which lasted much longer, hence more army lists and scenarios.

One question, regarding the above is, wouldn't a basic rule book, and a small supplement for the battle of Kursk, been less expensive than the rule book and a supplement for Normandy? :)

Jim most definately yes.

But as explained in my thread ,as you have said this is a guesstimate on my part, that BGK I think was going to be a stand alone one off game like the big scale Normandy book( Normandy Firefight) he released just before.

I still think becsue of the happenings with Warhammer Historical this has led them to change track.

This is of course just my opinion on how things looked.

When I next meet Warwick I may ask him about this just to see how far off the mark I really am and of course to satisfy my curiosity.

I also agree with your point at that nobody has moaned about the rules per se

Hi all,

On Military Matters will be shipping all backorders for Battlegroup Kursk either tomorrow or ealy next week and taking copies to Fallin.

Price is $50.00 USD plus either $7.50 USD for priority postage or $3.95 USD for Media Mail

regards Dennis

Thanks for the update Dennis. Looking forward to receiving BK sometime next week.

Well just completed my first game of BGK .I lost quite heavily ,not being used to Russians and found how ineffective T34s were in 1943.

But hey despite losing I realy enjoyed the game. For me losing but enjoying a game is a sign of a good game.

how ineffective T34s were in 1943?

Good job nobody told the Germans!!

Well the Russians already new that , that why the T34/85 was in the development stage .I think the first one was ready around the end of 1943.

It was only through numbers (minly infantry) that the Russians actually won. Most people tend to concentrate on the theory that it was a big tank battle. True but it was a bigger infantry battle and also fair sized air battle too .

"It was only through numbers (minly infantry) that the Russians actually won."

Oh, how the German generals pushed this point of view in their post-war memoirs. It wasn't because the Germans arrived at the battle outdeceived and out maneuvered. No, it was the sheer Russian manpower advantage.

And people still believe it today.

It was only one of the most innovative tank designs that gave the Germans a good run and forced them to reconsider their own armor, the Panther being their own version of the T34.

Those humble T.34/76's were good enough to win the (real) battle of Kursk :)

Were your T.34's ineffective because of poor tactics, unlucky die rolls or the way the rules are written?

It was only through numbers (minly infantry) that the Russians actually won. Most people tend to concentrate on the theory that it was a big tank battle. True but it was a bigger infantry battle and also fair sized air battle too .

While a very large generalisation is essentially correct but in context of poor german preparation and good Russian Operational practise. It is the last one that people seem to completely overlook. While Kursk was going on STAVKA was preparing a counter offensive which was only possible by achieve overwhelming superiority in numbers. The troops at Kursk (Southern Salient) were constantly under pressure from the timely arrival of Russian reserve forces on the flanks. As the lack of sufficient infantry flanking forces to defend penetrations resulting in the diversion of armoured strength this saw a gradual dilution of German combat power.

As to whether the Germans should have attacked at all is a Strategic question. Why did they…popular press indicates that it was to show the public at home that they were still being successful.

As to the T34 effectiveness, again in context it still had the 76.2L42 main gun and its armour was no longer effective protection against the 50L60 or the 75L43 and L48 weapons being introduced.

BGK is yet another very nicely produced but badly written set of rules!

If there wasn't so much crap in the book there would have been room to explain the rules properly.

There are some interesting concepts but artillery is too long winded, it gets confusing with the different types of fire and the experience rating of the troops makes very little difference.

My T34s were so ineffective because my oponnent was so stuffy with his dice throws it was untrue.I think the T34s will come into their own once i can field a full company of 10 (yes you can select full companies in this ruleset ) and perhaps some SU152s to give him something else to think about.

Despite losing it was fun. After all it isnt real its just a game in which to have fun.

Some will like it and others won't thats life.We all have different tastes

How would this work as a company per player set of rules? Multi-based infantry?

I already enjoy ROE and Nuts! for platoon level. Particularly Nuts!

Hey Ceasar,

You mention NUTS! is it and Disposible heroes comparable? I really like the look and feel of KGN and BGK, especially after a thumb through the BGK book and intro game of KGN both at Fiasco last weekend.

GOW: I saw the rules for artillery and there are indeed 6? steps for rolling for the calling it in, if you get priority, if you then get it arriving at all, then resolving how it hits. You could house rule it if you found it too many steps. I do like the idea of this level of detail and the game(s) seem to hit the balance between the Platoon and FOW scale, but flexible enough to dip its toe either way if needs be I think. I will have to play it more (again…)

Ark

@GOW
Experience rating makes quite a bit of difference.

We played our first two games just over a week ago and in two sessions managed to get over 10 full (20 player) turns in just over two hours and we didn't get bogged down by the detail. As long as you know the sequence it rattles through quickly. after our second game I think we only had occasional checks back to the main rule book.

Not sure about the badly written piece. From a grammar perspective, I have only found one typo in the book and the BR find and replace that someone didn't check. The rules flow well and are logically laid out.

The rules themselves are well provided with examples which takes you through most likely occasions and the system is flexible to let you play as you want which I find is always a bonus in a rule set.

Hi, Ark. What do you mean by comparable? DH is a game set at a platoon commander and is much more of a traditional type of wargame. It is a fine game with extensive game information on the forces involved, detailed vehicle rules in terms of armor and penetration and I would place it up there with ROE. It has a points system for those who want it.
Nut! is a non-traditional type of game that puts you at the squad to platoon commander level with as much character detail that you want. The game lacks what I consider good OOB info but that is available elsewhere. It is scenario based, no points. The system shines in the way models react to the activities of others', which keeps players constantly engaged and forces you to deal with your models not always behaving predictably. I find it tactically interesting. The vehicle attributes are abstract, but unlike other games each crewman has a function that he may not always perform well, so your gunner may have a great shot but the loader didn't get the round ready in time.

No game is perfect.