"Point Balance in X-Wing Game" Topic

I was reading an interesting thread on Board Game Geek about the point balance in the new X-wing game.

The original poster was essentially claiming the Rebels had no chance in an even point match with the Imperials? Just based on math and odds…

Now admittedly I have only had a chance to run through 4 games, but I am not finding that result to be true so far.

Last night ran two back to back games. 2 X-wings and a Y-wing vs. 4 Ties and an Advanced Tie…..

Cards and characters bringing the totals up to around 95 or 99 points each. Luke and Wedge in the X-wings. R2-D2 and some other helpful droids plus one load of torpedoes.

The first game did see Wedge crash and burn, but the rebels were able to finish off the rest of the rest of the Imperials.

In the second game we gave the Tie Advanced Vader as a pilot, and the Rebels trounced the Imperials even more effectively..

By the way the original posts said Y-wings were useless… in our game the Y-wing consistently got kills or ended up finishing off wounded Ties with the Ion Cannon. In game one it scored 3 kills!

We switched sides between the games so both players tried each side.

One thing that really impacted play was the pilot skill, in this scenarios we had three highly skilled pilots who nearly always got to shoot first for the Rebels. This was very useful for the Rebels.

Just curious to hear any other thoughts on this?

We have played about a dozen games so far and are about even on results.

I think as you usually have less Rebel ships mistakes are less forgiving than if you lose one fo your horde of TIEs. Once you get the hang of them rebels they play fine

I've only had one game, and after a really good start we Imperial players ended up with two TIE fighters and an Advanced TIE (all characters) against just Luke. He took some damage, then circled around and in the course of a few turns shot all of the Imperials down! It was a combination of good flying with fantastic dice rolling, and on top of that Luke was played by a thirteen year old…

I'd say it's balanced, although once I get more games in this next week I will post again.

By the way the original posts said Y-wings were useless…

That by itself should tell you something about how wrong the poster was. The Y-Wing sans Ion Cannon Turret isn't so hot, but if you regard it as a mandatory 5 point upgrade there's nothing wrong with having one or two of them on the table.

Played quite a bit and I'm not seeing a skewed ratio for either side yet. Some real walkovers, but both sides have had them equally.

The original poster was using a horde of ties (no advanced)
he was getting 8 on the table against 3 x wings and a y wing, I do not own the game, but he made a pure math calculation that said in a very limited set of circumstances, and all things being equal the die results should see the ties slaughter the x wings.

I can see the math, and think that the poster neglects that the x wings will be doing all they can to kill the ties whilst stopping two on one (or worse) matchups)

We played our first game at the local club last night, five TIE's and Vader in his TIE advance vs Luke plus two other X-Wings and a Y Wing. We found it evenly matched with Luke being the last rebel left vs two damaged TIE's which he took out in the end (although we have changed his name to Fluke Skyrunner due to his less than heroic tactics). We also found the Y Wing to be very useful getting two kills…

Mick

I think that the biggest issue is numbers. In smaller games the numbers issue isn't a big deal because the first time you kill a TIE it becomes difficult to win as the Empire. When you get higher points (and tons of TIEs) then it becomes more difficult to overcome the numbers advantage. If the Rebel player puts all of his points into a small number of ships with great pilots and upgrades then one lost fighter on his side is hard to come back from.

Maddaz,
I think that is the difference between math just on paper and the actual play.

One, the math does not take into account the move first shoot last issue the Ties typically faced.

Two, the 360 ION cannon fire arc…. It is a bigger factor than some may realize… especially for finishing off wounded Ties.

Maybe it works with a pure line up and fire, but the game does not seem to play like that?

Regarding more Ties? could be an issue.. will have to try it. However the base overlap rule got in the way a few times with the Ties essentially bumping into each other an losing their actions. This could get better with experience, but still more Ties are harder to coordinate.

So far really enjoying the simple Mechanics, fast play, and good old Fashioned Star Wars Theme…. Which I think the creators did a pretty good job recreating the movie feel.

The poster is basing that math on the assumption that the TIE Swarm and the X-Wings and Y-Wing are just sitting in front of each other blasting away at each other. He's not taking into consideration the fact that ships will be moving around and that the TIEs won't always be able to take shots on the Rebel ships. I'm guessing he also isn't factoring in the affects that critical hits can have on ship. TIE fighters will suffer more from critical hits more than the Rebels due to the Rebel's shields. With no way to mitigate the effects of critical hits the TIE fighters will be much reduced in effectiveness.

This is also another common problem with points based systems, a huge swarm of cheap stuff ends up being more effective than a small elite group of equal points.

I've not played any games with large disparity in numbers like this. I've only played games where one of the sides only had a single ship advantage. All of them seemed very equal. I've seen no big advantage either way.

I wonder if the same could be said with taking a swarm of all the cheapest Rebel ships and taking a small number of elite Empire ships. Would the math work out to giving the Rebels the definite advantage?

Played quite a few games and it seems to be a balanced game . Y wings with an Ion cannon hurts ties very well . damage and making them sit wo others can line up or to get away . The dice do throw a monkey wrench into the best of plans .

The original poster's math was flawed from the start. One example he uses is two 12-point TIE Fighters against one 21-point X-Wing. 24 points is greater than 21 points. He is using an imbalanced equation to try and prove that the game is imbalanced.

Masses of TIEs in some hypothetical 200-300 point game will get in each others way a lot, too. Collisions will rob them of their actions regularly, which is death on shieldless targets, and even if they carefully avoid them they won't have the elbow room to use their barrel rolls very often, which further limits their options.

"in our game the Y-wing consistently got kills or ended up finishing off wounded Ties with the Ion Cannon. In game one it scored 3 kills!"

You were only letting the ion cannons do a single point of damage, correct?

Seeing Y-Wings getting a lot of kills is commonplace. The 360 fire arc and strong attack dice of the Ion Cannon make them very good at selecting 1-hit-left targets and finishing them off, and their sheer toughness lets them hang around for a lot of shots..

Yes, only one point of Damage for the IONs…

it killed a coupel ships head to head.. Luck

now at range 1 we were giving extra attack dice to ION and missiles?

I am nt positive that was correct?

We have 3 or 4 very balanaced games- I would agree that tactics are maybe slightly more important for Rebels. In our first game the two rebel players didnt communicate and ended up splitting up, which left a Y wing pretty much on its own. 3 TIE fighters in a pack later and it was very dead. The X wing was then fairly easy pickings.

When the rebs worked together it was a lot closer and the games went both ways, with wins for both sides, coming down to a nice fun mix of tactics and dice rolling.

Masses of TIEs in some hypothetical 200-300 point game will get in each others way a lot, too. Collisions will rob them of their actions regularly, which is death on shieldless targets, and even if they carefully avoid them they won't have the elbow room to use their barrel rolls very often, which further limits their options.

We found this happened a lot even with 4 or 5 Ties… and that was with one player commanding them :)

I think the real challenge of the game is maneuvering through the "fur ball". I agree, that more Ties will make this even more challenging. It is good that the rules and mechanics are streamlined, because thinking out the moves is like playing 3-D chess where the pieces will be moving at various points in the move sequence. Add some asteroids or a big ship as escorted object or any other large blocking piece that also moves reminds me of the mind puzzle of the board game Robo Rally by WOTC.

You only get the extra range band 1 dice on primary lasers not missiles torpedoes ion cannons etc

Thanks Cpt… did not catch that in the rules.

That would have impacted a couple of roles.

what about the defense dice? do the defenders get an extra dice aat rang 3 vs. Ion or missiles?

I have played two games with my sons, sixteen and thirteen, with the thirteen year old playing a gray squadron Y-wing, and I played a Red Squadron X-wing, and my sixteen year old played two Tie Fighters from Black Squadron. In other words we all had equal pilots for our first game. I had an unfair advantage in that I am very good at spatial relationships and smoked my sixteen year old.

The second game we decided to change it up; I stuck with the same X-wing, my thirteen year old took a level 6 pilot for the Y-wing, and my sixteen year old kept one Black Squadron Tie and took a level six pilot for his other Tie called the "Dark Curse". Again due to my ability to plot ahead things did not go well for the Tie Fighters.

While I was away today my two sons played a third game. Their game was much more even, but the rebels ended up winning again. Therefore, I feel that you need to have about two Ties for every Rebel ship because the Ties are a lot more flimsy. The Zero vs. Wildcat metaphor is a good one.

@Dervel
No, you do not get extra defence dice. Of course only ion cannons, missiles and HLCs can use this "sniping" ability.

We've played a couple of 200 points games, me as the Rebels versus 2-3 TIE Bombers, TIE Fighters and a Shuttle. I took X-Wings (usually 3), B-Wings, A-Wings and HWK-290s.

The first game I got my ass kicked, and the second game I got my ass kicked. Both game I had problems manoeuvring the Rebel fleet with so many ships and I wound up with lots of collisions. I also got hammered because the TIE-Bs keyed in on my B-Wings with Assault Missiles and did a huge amount of collateral damage.

It must be said that the star of both games were the A-Wings. In the second game, I took a pair of Green Squadron pilots with Deadeye, one with an Assault Missile and one with a Homing Missile. Being able to pick and choose shots was excellent and allowed me to put the Assault Missile right where it would do the most damage.

Speaking from experience, the game is quite well balanced. Note, that it is also quite possible to build very poor squads for either side, but there are numerous good choice for both as well.

I run X-Wing events at a couple of local venues, and have been logging upwards of 20 hours a month playing X-Wing since February. I've played in the 4 New England Regional Tournaments with top placing. 2nd, 1st, 3rd, and top 8. (Sadly, I have to pass on going to the World Championships, drat.)

Armchair speculation based on mathematics presumptions are a perennial favorite on BGG. I've yet to see one of those that has much relationship to game play. That type of approach completely neglects the intangible, but substantial, tactical factors involved in actually playing the game.

Yes, TIE swarms of 6-8 ships are, and will remain, one of the strongest options available. They also take a lot of skill to handle effectively. It's not easy getting the most use out of their capabilities. And even in the hands of top players, they are not a sure win.

The largest tournament held to date was the US National Championship at GenCon this year. 4 X-Wings beat a TIE swarm to win the final match.

(Range modifiers to attack or defense dice only apply to primary weapons, not secondaries like Ion or Missiles.)

(And Y-Wings rock!)

Remember… range bonuses and penalties are only for primary weapons, not secondary weapons (i.e. weapons on a card).

The tie swarm isn't relevant anymore. Give me a falcon with the right cards and I can pop a tie ever turn for anywhere on the table.

Any imbalance was probably eliminated by wave 2. Not sure if wave 3 has introduced any more. The B-wing out classes the bomber point for point. The Hawk and the Lambda are a bit closer.

Au contraire, my TIE swarms have shot down many a Falcon on their way to Win, Place, and Show at Regionals. Takes 2 turns of concentrated fire power to kill a bird. Academies jamming its flight paths, and it doen't get any actions.

Falcons are tough for sure, but not a TIE breaker ^,^

But the really nice thing about this game, is that it really comes down to player skill. Any number of list types are competitive. But lists don't win games. Any squad needs to be flown well to make it into the top tiers.