""Silent Death" Fighter Designs Used in Indiegogo Project" Topic

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Are these SD: New Era designs public domain now? First they are ripped off by a Chinese manufacturer, and this seems to have nothing to do with Silent Death.

Anybody know about this? Black Widow Pilot?

Last I heard, the production rights to the plastics were owned by several companies, which explains why they're sold by EM-4 and the aforementioned Chinese firm. In all probability, the guys behind the Kickstarter are getting them from China simply as inexpensive "pawns" for their game. Whether they expect to benefit from the Silent Death connection or have just never heard of it I don't know, but I'd bet Widow and his partners may have to take steps to prevent them using artwork of the minis if they expect to retain what's left of the IP.

That last one was my concern, if SD is up and running again.

And I just assumed the Chinese knock-off was, well, typical disregard for IP.

With EM-4 selling them? I know ICE was aware of both the up-sized Chinese versions and EM-4, so it's unlikely that there's anything crooked going on, even in the Asian end of things.

Given what the original molds must have cost way back when, I wonder if ICE got them done cheap in exchange for the actual manufacturer retaining production rights.

In the comments the founder of the projects states that he's getting them from China.

Are these SD: New Era designs public domain now? First they are ripped off by a Chinese manufacturer, and this seems to have nothing to do with Silent Death.

I have just notified the powers-that-be-above-my-head about this turn of events…

…and the ability of others to sell those plastics is a matter of discussion, actually, as the designs are indeed very much a part of the Silent Death IP, and no, it sure as Hell ain't in the public domain…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Wasn't that impressed with the game itself (judging by the video) but – based on the use of the models – I wouldn't buy it if it were the last game on earth.

The game producers should have done enough research to work out that what they were doing using these miniatures was wrong. Don't know whether it's illegal or not (I'm not a lawyer) but it is wrong (in my book).

John T

After that recent "Starfire" kickstart that had nothing to do with the real Starfire games, I've given up on assuming that anyone does any research at all before starting a crowdfunding effort.

Nice artwork on the box, too bad it's not their IP.

Seems like it is highly influenced by Twilight Imperium, but not as good. I'll not be investing in it.

My initial "public domain" comment was, for the most part, sarcasm.

I was hoping BWP would be on it. I love SD, and don't want the likes of these guys to steal from the rightful owners.

That's a Lance Electra, dammit!

I posted an (anonymous) question on their blog, here:

nskngames.blogspot.com

Let's see if they answer…

And here's the response:

Anonymous: "Who came up with the designs for the ships?"

Andrei Novac: "The plastic ships are commercial (not our design), the ship blueprints are made by Maria Marin, one of our two graphic artists"

Andrei Novac: "The plastic ships are commercial (not our design), the ship blueprints are made by Maria Marin, one of our two graphic artists"

Um, while they may be "commercially available" in the sense that one can buy them from certain retailers, that still doesn't address the issue of giving credit where credit is due…

Mr. Doyle, thank you again for taking the initiative in posting your question on their forum. Their answer is IMHO about as euphemistically (corporate) as they come (and as morally solid as wet cardboard).

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

I don't think nvdoyl asked the question correctly. I added to it and also posted a thread on the BoardGameGeek site about it, pointing out what the ships are.

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Let me ask you this, can Metal Express 'prove' that they own the IP rights? Do they own them everywhere? The reason I ask is that just because some Chinese company and a Romanian company are producing/using the things people are throwing a hissy fit, while em4 has been producing/selling them for years. Not to mention that ICE in it's many incarnations doesn't exactly have a spotless record.

If we look at Macross vs Robotech and Harmony Gold in the US you can see that folks can legally get away with a darned lot.

Or look at CnC and the Renegade Legion miniatures, they have the right or have 'claimed' the right to produce the miniatures (rumors say FASA didn't pay what was owed). Although that doesn't give them the rights on the RL IP, and that could indeed be what's happening here.

And let's not forget all the garage kits and models that are out there that use someone else's IP. Some are within legal limits, most are not. Folks seem to forget that 'garage kits' only have a legal standing within Japan and only then with a single day license during a particular con, once a year. Just because most of the big IP holders aren't bringing down the hammer on the tiny out fits producing Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5, etc. ships/models, doesn't make it legal.

As a consumer I don't really give a rats behind. You have a product no one else produces, that I want for the price you ask, I have very little concerns about legality. And I suspect that most gamers feel the same, it isn't even an issue about morality, it's one of legality. Because when the copyright on those designs suddenly expires it becomes legal and would anyone have moral objections then?

Doesn't mean that Metal Express shouldn't investigate and swing a C&D letter if they are within their rights to do so, business is business. But then I ask, why is it bad when GW does it, and all right when ME does it?

I have very little concerns about legality. And I suspect that most gamers feel the same,

I suspect (and indeed hope) you are wrong Cergorach. But what do I know…

John T

As to Cergorach's question as to "Do they own them everywher?), they own the IP in any country that is a signatory of the Berne Copyright Convention. Plus two other Copyright treaties, Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS) and WIPO Copyright Treaty (WCT). Romania is a signatory as of January 1, 1927.

Let me ask you this, can Metal Express 'prove' that they own the IP rights?

Um, yes, we can.

Do they own them everywhere? The reason I ask is that just because some Chinese company and a Romanian company are producing/using the things people are throwing a hissy fit,

See Delthos' comments above.

while em4 has been producing/selling them for years.

Selling, yes, producing them I'm not so sure, unless EM4 is a production facility of Dice & Games (who are licensed to manufacture them and sell them wholesale). From the higher ups on this matter so far:

"The smaller plastic ships 1-1s are from a mold in the UK at Dice & Games

The larger 2-1s are pirate versions stolen by the Chinese company that pantographed the original molds from the 3-1 masters

Dice & Games handled the mold making in Hong Kong and they farmed it out to the mainland.

Dice & Games has permission to use the mold and sell 1-1s. The 2-1s are IP theft."

So the toys are pirate copies, the original "Wings of Death" plastics are still ICE/ME's IP, and the people in Romania have used the Silent Death IP without permission from the IP holder.

Not to mention that ICE in it's many incarnations doesn't exactly have a spotless record.

Care to elaborate on how Metal Express -specifically Dr. Sheldon Greaves and myself- have in any way had anything to do with whatever it is you're specifically taking issue with? Can you kindly provide some specifics regarding your contention that "…ICE in it's many incarnations doesn't exactly have a spotless record?"

If we look at Macross vs Robotech and Harmony Gold in the US you can see that folks can legally get away with a darned lot.

Harmony Gold has nothing to do with us.

Or look at CnC and the Renegade Legion miniatures, they have the right or have 'claimed' the right to produce the miniatures (rumors say FASA didn't pay what was owed). Although that doesn't give them the rights on the RL IP, and that could indeed be what's happening here.

It isn't.

And let's not forget all the garage kits and models that are out there that use someone else's IP. Some are within legal limits, most are not. Folks seem to forget that 'garage kits' only have a legal standing within Japan and only then with a single day license during a particular con, once a year. Just because most of the big IP holders aren't bringing down the hammer on the tiny out fits producing Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5, etc. ships/models, doesn't make it legal.

And again, this has precisely what to do with this matter of the Metal Express/Silent Death IP being used without permission by a company in Romania? This justifies a Chinese company pantographing prototypes of unlicensed toys from our 3-to-1 resin models how again, precisely?

As a consumer I don't really give a rats behind. You have a product no one else produces, that I want for the price you ask, I have very little concerns about legality.

Wow. So if you produced some original creative work and others copied it for fun and profit and international distribution and sales without your permission you wouldn't care a rat's behind?

And I suspect that most gamers feel the same, it isn't even an issue about morality, it's one of legality.

First off, please don't presume you speak for most gamers. Second, *you* personally may not care about right from wrong, but only what is "legal," and that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, however don't presume that others share your opinion. I'm an actual historian, so I can indeed cite all sorts of things that were "legal" during my own 50 years on this earth, and not one of them was morally acceptable by any stretch of the imagination.

Legal, yes, right, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Because when the copyright on those designs suddenly expires it becomes legal and would anyone have moral objections then?

The copyright has not expired. Since you care only about what is legal, and our copyright has not expired, and the folks in Romania and China were *not* given permission to copy the Silent Death IP in any fashion, am I right in concluding that you're OK if ICE/ME pursues this matter through legal channels?

Doesn't mean that Metal Express shouldn't investigate and swing a C&D letter if they are within their rights to do so, business is business. But then I ask, why is it bad when GW does it, and all right when ME does it?

Funny, I don't recall ever stating that it was somehow not OK for GW to issue a C&D letter in cases of flagrant IP violations… I also don't recall anyone on this thread making that assertion either…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

I suspect (and indeed hope) you are wrong Cergorach.

He is, but let's not let a little thing like facts get between another and their God-given right to engage in cynicism…

But what do I know…

Um, I read your "Fantasy Facts" column religiously for years, Mr. Treadaway, so do *not* get me started!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

BWP, Em4 is a (wholly owned) subsidiary of Dice & Games, they sell the stuff D&G produces.

My criticism of ICE over the years and the handling of the SD IP isn't criticism of either Dr. Sheldon Greaves or Leland R. Erickson, I don't know you guys. What I'm pointing out is that the IP has been 'tainted', that affects perception, something new management is stuck with. And because in the past the folks controlling the IP messed up, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that something was messed up with licensing in China. I know you folks aren't Harmony Gold, but due some legal loopholes they now control the Macross designs in North America, the same could be true for the folks in China. I don't know enough about China's laws over the last 20 years, so I couldn't say, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility.

As for the Berne Convention, in theory international law should overrule local law, in reality, in many countries local law overrules international law. That's both true in the US, China, and my own country (the Netherlands). Here it's actually legal to make a copy from an illegal source for personal use, although distributing is illegal and this is for everything except software (different copyright laws for software). We do owe a little money for each personal copy that is made (whether it's from an illegal source or not), but that is collected through tariffs on the media (CD & DVD writables). I don't know the IP law of Romania, but blindly assuming that the Berne Convention is exactly implemented in local law is not a good idea…

Also keep in mind that I said 'as a consumer', that's a different hat from the 'as an entrepreneur' hat. Look up doublethink. As an entrepreneur I see piracy a bit differently, I know you can't stop it from the consumers side, so you use it. When individuals start making models and selling them in different scales from what you produce, instead of wielding a C&D letter I would think "Why aren't we doing that?". If from a business point of view it isn't feasible or profitable to do, you might want to consider a reasonable priced license instead of stopping sales from one channel. In this case the boardgame has already been produced and shipped, so a C&D might be unproductive/unprofitable, a license after the fact might generate some income…

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right and just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong, just legal and illegal.

What I typed wasn't necessarily directed at a specific person. When I see comments about piracy like the above, while a few threads below this one folks are discussing and selling SW Deathstar components and the same folks who lash out against piracy in here don't comment in there in the same way is… strange… to say the least.

Don't get me wrong, I wish SD all the best, still the best space fighter game imho. I have stuff going back to the first edition even though SD stuff was very difficult to find and very expensive over here for a long time. I even bought digital copies of books I already owned, because they were decently priced, in the original electronic format, and I wanted to support the folks that were making an effort to continue a great game. On the other hand if those Chinese copies were the perfect size for a gaming project I wouldn't think twice of buying them, I would of course prefer to buy them from legal holders of the SD IP. Not that I have a need for those Chinese copies at this time, they are still far to small as 1:100 fighters.

As for what 'most' gamers prefer, neither of us can speak for all gamers, we can only 'suspect'. I do think that most gamers want a copy from a legal source, but if they can't due to not any being available from a legal source or due to expense I know from experience many a gamer just won't care about legality. If that's most, that's up for discussion and probably biased in which gaming circles we operate, not to mention age, location, honesty, etc.

Cergorach. Irrespective of how right or wrong anyone is in this matter, I have to say I find your take on this unremittingly depressing.

I want small wargames friendly companies to do well and large, international idea stealers to do badly. I want said small wargames friendly companies not to parasitcally take things from each other either directly or via large international idea stealers.

The legal side of this is only important in an immoral world. Sadly, the rather depressing one you have reminded me about….

Good luck Leland. With friends like this, how does anyone survive in this industry?

John T

BWP, Em4 is a (wholly owned) subsidiary of Dice & Games, they sell the stuff D&G produces.

Bingo. That's why it is legal and proper for EM4/Dice & Games to sell the Silent Death plastic "core ships." It is not however legal and proper for a third party to use the Silent Death IP without the prior, expressed permission of the IP holder. That is the sole issue here, no more, no less.

My criticism of ICE over the years and the handling of the SD IP isn't criticism of either Dr. Sheldon Greaves or Leland R. Erickson, I don't know you guys.

We're the face of this branch of the company you've excoriated, Oh, Anonymous Blogger, so you shouldn't be surprised if at least one of us might at least question you accordingly when you chose to launch into a rant about how, "…ICE in it's many incarnations doesn't exactly have a spotless record" as justification for a third party company helping themselves to the Silent Death IP. Obviously Dr. Greaves and I cannot change the past (mis)behavior of other people. We can however go forward, which is precisely what we're up to at the moment with or without your "support," "Cergorach."

What I'm pointing out is that the IP has been 'tainted', that affects perception, something new management is stuck with. And because in the past the folks controlling the IP messed up, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that something was messed up with licensing in China.

"Tainted?" Care to explain precisely *how* it is "tainted" in your view? "Folks in the past messed up?" "Messed up" how, precisely? The 3-to-1 masters were *pirated,* pure and simple. Does the phrase "blame the victim" ring any bells for you?

I know you folks aren't Harmony Gold, but due some legal loopholes they now control the Macross designs in North America, the same could be true for the folks in China. I don't know enough about China's laws over the last 20 years, so I couldn't say, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility.

So you're merely *speculating* as opposed to having any actual facts. Got it. Your statement also begs the question, if we're not Harmony Gold, why even bring them up as a comparison? Perhaps you'd best consider using more *valid* examples to make your point…? Just sayin'…

So lessee, you wrote:

As for the Berne Convention, in theory international law should overrule local law, in reality, in many countries local law overrules international law. That's both true in the US, China, and my own country (the Netherlands). Here it's actually legal to make a copy from an illegal source for personal use, although distributing is illegal and this is for everything except software (different copyright laws for software). We do owe a little money for each personal copy that is made (whether it's from an illegal source or not), but that is collected through tariffs on the media (CD & DVD writables). I don't know the IP law of Romania, but blindly assuming that the Berne Convention is exactly implemented in local law is not a good idea…

Originally you wrote,

As a consumer I don't really give a rats behind. You have a product no one else produces, that I want for the price you ask, I have very little concerns about legality. And I suspect that most gamers feel the same, it isn't even an issue about morality, it's one of legality.

So your original point is clear; you only care about what is legal, not what is right. I may be an American, but there is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension skills.

Also keep in mind that I said 'as a consumer', that's a different hat from the 'as an entrepreneur' hat. Look up doublethink.

I am quite familiar with Orwell's 1984. "Doublethink" is part of "newspeak." Its another way of saying "bullshitting" to an American BTW, and carries just as much weight, like asserting that one's opinions carry the same validity as actual facts.

As an entrepreneur I see piracy a bit differently, I know you can't stop it from the consumers side, so you use it. When individuals start making models and selling them in different scales from what you produce, instead of wielding a C&D letter I would think "Why aren't we doing that?".

So you're now also an entrepreneur in addition to being a consumer. OK, I'll bite, how big is your R&D budget? Do you have sufficient cash flow in your start up to expand your production immediately to cover that new scale of product those pirates in Obscuristan are now producing after copying your existing product without your permission? IP laws exist for a very good reason, including protecting the original creative work of indy artists who may not have your financial strength to protect their work from being exploited by those who like you don't care about right from wrong, only if it's "legal" in their country (ie., "we can get away with this!").

I happen to be an artist among other professional hats I wear, and I'm married to an indy fashion designer and consultant, so our household is all too familiar with piracy -especially piracy from the PRC- and just how often it occurs, and who gets the shaft when they don't have the billion dollar company budget to keep a team of IP lawyers on retainer that are bilingual in English and Chinese and knowledgeable in the laws of both countries.

If from a business point of view it isn't feasible or profitable to do, you might want to consider a reasonable priced license instead of stopping sales from one channel. In this case the boardgame has already been produced and shipped, so a C&D might be unproductive/unprofitable, a license after the fact might generate some income…

And? You're assuming a great deal, "Cergorach," about our level of business knowledge among other things. Maybe we'd prefer *not* to share our IP with a group that has so cavalierly helped themselves to the Silent Death imagery on something called "principle," just for starters.

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right and just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong, just legal and illegal.

In American English this is called "backpedaling."

What I typed wasn't necessarily directed at a specific person. When I see comments about piracy like the above, while a few threads below this one folks are discussing and selling SW Deathstar components and the same folks who lash out against piracy in here don't comment in there in the same way is… strange… to say the least.

OK. I'll bite. Name the culprits, and direct your comments to them about their apparent double standards.

Don't get me wrong, I wish SD all the best, still the best space fighter game imho. I have stuff going back to the first edition even though SD stuff was very difficult to find and very expensive over here for a long time. I even bought digital copies of books I already owned, because they were decently priced, in the original electronic format, and I wanted to support the folks that were making an effort to continue a great game.

If you sincerely want to support us, "Cergorach," you've demonstrated a funny way of expressing that support in your original comments on this thread obvious to a dead blind man.

On the other hand if those Chinese copies were the perfect size for a gaming project I wouldn't think twice of buying them, I would of course prefer to buy them from legal holders of the SD IP. Not that I have a need for those Chinese copies at this time, they are still far to small as 1:100 fighters.

I cannot stop this or that consumer from buying pirated copies of much of anything. That being said, I won't condone the action, especially when the goods have been stolen from a small outfit or a single indy designer whose margin of profit is so much tighter than say Lucasfilm, Ltd. A major multi-billion dollar corporate entity can afford the legions of lawyers necessary to pursue piracy cases 'til Kingdom Come. The indy designer whose brilliant idea was just stolen by pirates in a country whose courts are notorious for ignoring the international copyright treaties they've signed is SOL as we say here in the States. I'll stand on the side of the creator whose original ideas were flagrantly stolen, thank you very much.

As for what 'most' gamers prefer, neither of us can speak for all gamers, we can only 'suspect'.

There are facts and there are opinions. We're entitled to our own opinions, "Cergorach," but not our own facts.

I do think that most gamers want a copy from a legal source, but if they can't due to not any being available from a legal source or due to expense I know from experience many a gamer just won't care about legality. If that's most, that's up for discussion and probably biased in which gaming circles we operate, not to mention age, location, honesty, etc.

Backpedaling again. The bottom line here is simple; this company in Romania did *not* have permission to use the Silent Death IP from the IP holder. Period. Neither did the Chinese company that copied the 3-to-1 masters to make knock-off toys. Period.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Cergorach. Irrespective of how right or wrong anyone is in this matter, I have to say I find your take on this unremittingly depressing.

You're being too kind here, Mr. Treadaway.

I want small wargames friendly companies to do well and large, international idea stealers to do badly. I want said small wargames friendly companies not to parasitcally take things from each other either directly or via large international idea stealers.

Right from wrong. Looks like one consumer on this thread understands the concept of the principle of right from wrong trumping legality of dubious integrity…

The legal side of this is only important in an immoral world. Sadly, the rather depressing one you have reminded me about….

The world is; we make it thus. Don't get depressed, get angry, and do what you can to push back, however modest that push back may be, Mr. Treadaway. The fight ain't over until the last human being uses their last breath to raise their hand in the one-finger salute to an uncaring universe!

At least, that's my personal philosophy, and I'm sticking to it come Hell, high water, or the Second Coming.

Good luck Leland. With friends like this, how does anyone survive in this industry?

LOL!! He ain't my friend; I know who my friends are, and they don't try and rationalize away IP piracy among other matters…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

If your 'friends' are only 'friends' because they think as you do, you've completely missed the concept of friends… I don't know you personally, you don't know me personally, so the whole concept of friends is silly in this case. And using a saying to take a personal dig at me because I have a divergent view on things from your perspective is not best practice, not to mention rude. I did not attack you or your company (under current management) in anyway. I did make note that ICE in the past wasn't the best run company and has left many folks feeling that they were less then kosher and as an extension the IPs they developed. That is something the 'new' company has to overcome, whether you like that idea or not is a whole different matter, but that doesn't change that idea in some of your (potential) customers in any way.

Equating morality and principles with IP law is… Your right under freedom of speech, just as it is mine to disagree with you on that and state my opinion. Let's leave it at that.

As for the question "How does anyone survive in this industry?", they mostly don't. That is sad, but generally doesn't have anything to do with that 'depressing world' you keep talking about, it's that most small game companies are run by gamers and not business(wo)men. Most business(wo)men tend to stay away from the gaming industry because generally it's unprofitable and unpredictable. Just look at what your average writer/illustrator makes in the gaming business and what he makes outside of it. You generally don't enter the games industry for money, but for love of (your) games. As for a 'depressing world', just look at Kickstarter and Indiegogo to see how many great ideas/product get funded.

If your 'friends' are only 'friends' because they think as you do, you've completely missed the concept of friends…

An interesting take on friendship.

It's not anything personal cergorach, but my life is only so long, I'm afraid, and I haven't the time left on this planet to waste reading your thoughts/justifications for what has gone on here.

I will be adding you to my quite short stifle list because I suspect that your attitudes to the hobby and mine are so very divergent that I see no real point in swapping any more thoughts on this matter (or anything else, come to think of it).

Feel free to do the same, obviously…

John T

"Cergorach,"

your whole comment on friends is a straw man argument, not a cogent rebuttal. Your original statement was 100% clear:

As a consumer I don't really give a rats behind. You have a product no one else produces, that I want for the price you ask, I have very little concerns about legality. And I suspect that most gamers feel the same, it isn't even an issue about morality, it's one of legality.

Your invocation of "…ICE in the past wasn't the best run company and has left many folks feeling that they were less then kosher and as an extension the IPs they developed" is another transparent attempt at rationalization; you neither speak for "many folks" nor have you once backed up your claim with a single fact concerning ICE's past "perfidy." This is not to say that ICE was a bunch of saints one way or another under any particular management, "Cergorach," but it does not justify nor excuse anyone helping themselves to the Silent Death IP without permission from the IP holder.

You can try and rationalize this 'til Kingdom Come, you can play the victim card and claim we're attacking you (I for one am not; I'm refuting your apologia for IP piracy). You can do this all day long. It still won't make you right in this matter, nor would it make your argument right in a court of law.

As for this little industry of ours, I for one have been involved in it since 1975. I've provided historical research to multiple manufacturers (and still do), authored a few supplements for Silent Death and even a set of historical wargame rules (and will do more before I shed my mortal coil). I've designed a few models that are in production with an indy figure maker. I'll do more given half a chance.

What I have never done and will not do is violate the IP of another company for fun and profit. It has nothing to do with who owns the IP in and of itself; it has everything to do with right from wrong. That most of our competitors are working with a very narrow profit margin for success I am only all too aware of, and all the more reason I for one refuse to undercut their hard work by violating their IP, by enabling others to do so, or by even excusing consumers
who choose to disregard a manufacturer and/or artist's right to not having their original ideas stolen by knowingly enabling pirates by buying knock-offs.

And using a saying to take a personal dig at me because I have a divergent view on things from your perspective is not best practice, not to mention rude

"Rude?" "Not best practice?" Practice for what, "Cergorach," excusing and enabling IP piracy? Sorry to burst your bubble, "Cergorach," but your claims of being offended by my alleged "rudeness" after you've spent so much bandwidth defending and excusing IP piracy with your frankly inflammatory original statement including insinuations obvious to a dead blind man concerning how ICE was such a company of dubious repute without a single fact to back up your claims and your own unsupported opinions renders your claims of personal outrage beggaring belief.

No, this company did not have permission to use the Silent Death IP for their boardgame. Period. End of subject.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Leland,

After posting on their site/blog, they have asked me and nvdoyl to email them with what we see as the problem. Maybe you could contact them, or maybe you want to leave it for your lawyers. I don't know the best route to take. They must frequent TMP as nvdoyl didn't post his name, but they use his name specifically, so I guess they know by now.

AgniOctober 21, 2012 7:29 PM

Dear Delthos and nvdoyl,

Please be so kind and contact us directly on the email office@nskn.net, as I would like to understand what is your point.

Thanks

Reply

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Leland,

I sent a message to Bill to forward to you as I can't PM being I'm not currently a supporting member. I sent NSKN an email and they responded that they are willing to work something out with you, as the game has been produced and shipped to customers already. He attempted to send an email to mxsavant@metal-express.net but says he's not received a response, so I don't know if that account is being monitored. Anyway, please contact them at the email address I put in the above post. From the tone of his email, it sounds like they may not have known that the ships were copyrighted and did not intend to use them illegally. They expressed their concern to work it out in private though, so this will be the last I post on it.

I applaud them for recognizing what they've done and being willing to do the right thing.

Delthos,

thank you for that; I'm waiting to hear back from the honchos as to how they wish to proceed; the matter is now in the hands of those above my pay grade.

Frankly, I don't see NSKN as being in a position to "work something out" simply because they've already produced using the Silent Death IP without permission and shipped copies of their game; this will be up to the IP holders as to what is to be done, and what terms are to be put forward (if terms are to be offered at all).

Romania is a member of the EU, so I suspect they're subject at least in theory to the EU laws concerning IP violations…

We shall see…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net