"Maelstrom Games- Are they about to go bust?? " Topic

My question did extend to other manufacturers (last sentance), but I specifically want to know the integrity of the company that makes what I buy.

If they have a sharp accountant and shrewd business mind (and I'm not implying anything here)then the shop will have been in the name of another Ltd company and so won't go into receivership. However if it's been used as security for Maelstrom then it'll be going too as someone will want their money be it creditors or the bank. Now the stock in the premises could belong to either MG or EotS, unless they have carefully and deliberately sold every last bean before pulling up the drawbridge and all the stock left in there from now on is EotS. From personal experience I think the receivers bill could be pretty high sorting out this mess and they don't normally leave anything for anybody else in that scenario.

I just continue to be amazed that anyone is surprised at how limited liability companies work in a capitalist economy.

Hi, I went over to Maelstrom today to see how the Sturm uber FoW event was going. There were 40 FoW players in the Eye of the Storm room upstairs and another sci Fi Fantasy event with at least 60 players – the place was full.

The shop looked a bit short of stock. I had ordered 40K Dark Vengeance the day it came out from Maelstrom and mine came within 3 days, my son ordered his about an hour later and his has still not come despite numerous phone calls none of which ever got through and numerous emails that were never answered. He has now asked his credit card company to get his money back. So I could not help having a go at the lad running the shop. He had just been told he was being made redundant. He apologised for the trouble my son had had but it was outside his control. I came away feeling sorry for the lad in the shop but still #issed off with the ###### who run the company.

…but this is how you're supposed to do things in a capitalist economy…what's the problem?

So.. Maelstrom have folded..I presume, leaving someone owed a lot of money somewhere along the lines, or they wouldn't have folded.

And "eye of the storm" has been setup to replace it. On the same presime and using the exact same business model it appears.

It does kind of beg the question, what will stop "eye of the storm" going the same way as maelstrom? Unless they have some how changed their business model/rates/staffing etc.

And the previous posters about capitilsm are right. This is how business works these days. Personally, I will be avoiding buying "eye of the storm" I think.

I hope those who haven't got their orders get their moneys back.

I posted to this effect earlier, but I'll repeat for those who may not have trawled through everything. If you've paid Maelstrom directly using your credit card go to the credit card company and ask them to "chargeback" the outstanding amount. This isn't directly linked to Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act so CAN be used on transactions under £100.00 GBP The credit card issuer will reclaim the money from Maelstrom's bank, so it doesn't matter if Maelstrom have funds or not. You can do this on split orders too. Basically give the credit card issuer chapter & verse on the history of the order including any partial deliveries and copies of any emails etc. anything that can be used as evidence to support your claim. This should be a very simple, routine matter for your credit card issuer to sort out for you.

This was my job in a former life & I'm happy to give advice if anyone needs it.

…but this is how you're supposed to do things in a capitalist economy…what's the problem?

No, it's NOT. Maelstrom was undercapitalized, and didn't concentrate on carrying product that turns quickly. If your sales aren't covering your rent, you're going out of business.

Let's say you have a facility that costs $2,000 USD/mo in rent. This means that you need to clear about $4,000 USD/mo in profits (since you also need to pay utilities and employees), which is ~$10,000 in gross sales per month.

That is assuming a 20% profit margin which, taking into account Maelstroms constant crazy discounts,they were unlikely to achieve.

More like 10-15% maximum I would say taking into account the free p&p.

Their submitted financial statements for the past few years can be found here – link

My thoughts, with thanks to a couple of folks here for clarification on chargebacks and pointers to other stuff, can be found at link

Unfortunately this is the problem with deep discount retailers. They are trying to drive the industry on one thing – price. The problem is that everyone gets effectively the same discount off of retail – which is about 40%. So if you're already offering 10% to 20% off of retail, you have to make up all of your expenses and earn some profit in the remaining 20-30%. The only way you can do that is to move more VOLUME than anyone else. When you have multiple discounters in a space, you end up with a situation where there isn't enough collective market for everyone to survive. Basic economics.

Not forgetting the free p&p to anywhere in the world, that would knock off about another 10% profit on average!

A bit of advice that I've posted on another thread about how to make your claim:

It very much depends on how your credit card issuer is set up. First port of call would be to call their customer services (press 1 if life is too short…) and try to get put through to someone who works in the chargebacks department.

Explain the situation and ask what evidence they want. Some will act on a 'phone call, some may need all of the details set down in writing (this isn't them being awkward, but they have to forward evidence with the claim). The process may also vary slightly if you used a MasterCard or Visa as it is those organisations that lay down the rules not the individual credit card issuer.

A good example of stating your claim would be something to the effect of;

"On XYZ date I ordered the following items from Maelstrom Games to the value of £ABC. To date the goods have not been received (or to date ABC items to the value of…remain outstanding). I have attempted to contact Maelstrom Games via telephone/email on … (copies of emails enclosed) but they have not yet delivered the goods and I have reason to believe that they have ceased trading and will be unable to fulfill the order. I therefore request that you chargeback the amount of…and refund this to my account.

Signed…"

Hope that helps.

Interesting. According to the very high-end Credit Reference agency we use, Maelstrom rate only just a little bit better than Slitherine in terms of business/credit worthiness.

Slitherine
Rating C4
Risk Indicator 7 (93% chance of failure in the next 12 months)
Risk of failure HIgh
Recommended Credit Nil

Maelstrom
Rating N4
Risk Indicator 4 (96% chance of failure in the next 12 months)
Risk of failure HIgh
Recommended Credit Nil

Not forgetting the free p&p to anywhere in the world, that would knock off about another 10% profit on average!

Vagaries of UK tax law mean that if an item is sold overseas the retailer does not charge VAT (20%). All prices on the website included VAT giving them 20% to play with. Probably means they made more on overseas sales than they did on domestic sales

Have you seen overseas postage costs?

There are rumours that another online retailer is in deep trouble:(. The recession seems to be hitting the UK wargames industry.

Just a bit of positive news for Maelstrom – I ordered some gear about 2 weeks ago from them, and received it yesterday (I‘m in New Zealand, so that is fantastic service), and not only did I get the instock gear I wanted – also got a split order from September! So, it certainly seems that they are living up to the promise of using money from the fire sales to fund previous orders.

There are rumours that another online retailer is in deep trouble:(. The recession seems to be hitting the UK wargames industry.

It wouldn't surprise me that any discounter that relies on sales volume to keep going is in trouble at present. It's a poor business model

Best advice I can see is quite simply dont buy anything from Maelstrom unless you are completely loopy.

Hi guys, my boyfriend and I stopped by at "Maelstrom" in person today. The shop is open, but there is no sign or labelling any more.
The racks are very depleted, especially Games Workshop and their own resin line (Banelords). Banelords has also apparently changed name to something else – not sure if that's new or not.
The shop is open 9am to 6 every day, and I can find the number on the receipt if anyone would like. I don't know if it has changed.

The chap behind the counter was very helpful, so we didn't give him a hard time, but did ask why the shop has vanished.
He explained that they are separating into four separate businesses to reduce the cost of tax they have to pay; The gaming area and bar, the shop itself, the mail order website and the production of resin (Banelords).

Interestingly he also told us that they are considering weaning off Games Workshop – due to rumours of GW's new policy that would limit the supply to independent stockists.

He explained that they are separating into four separate businesses to reduce the cost of tax they have to pay; The gaming area and bar, the shop itself, the mail order website and the production of resin (Banelords).

Makes sense, but they seem to have done a poor job managing customer expectations during the transition.

Interestingly he also told us that they are considering weaning off Games Workshop – due to rumours of GW's new policy that would limit the supply to independent stockists.

More like GW won't let them sell their stuff,at a lower price than anyone else ?
LES

Anyone who had a Maelstrom account now has an Eye of the Storm account. I've tried it and I logged into Eye of the Storm with my Maelstrom password. Any unsent orders seem to have been passed across from Maelstrom to Eye of the Storm but data on past orders has dissappeared. Looks like they actually mean to carry on in a "business as usual" manner under the new name. Things could be messy for a while as all the cancelled orders, paypal disputes and credit card chargebacks work their way through the banks etc.

My account does not appear to have been copied. I tried logging it and was told my email address is not registered.

Quite frankly I'm not interested in ordering from them again. They took my money and wouldn't respond to my emails. F*ck them

I have an outstanding order with them which I lodged at the begining of their sale.(7th oct) As website is now down got no idea how to contact them to make equiries about my order. On verge of pursuing a refund thru paypal. But before I do I wish to try and contact this new entity called "eye of storm" to see if they have inherited my order. Howeaver I cannot find this new entity on the net, can anyone provide me with their web address please?
regards
simon

Howeaver I cannot find this new entity on the net, can anyone provide me with their web address please?

link
LES

Many thanks Les. Tried my old log in and according to them I do not exist. With no other option to pursue my order I will pursue a refund through paypal. Its a pity for I would have liked to actually get the order I lodged. grrrrrr Fingers crossed my pursuit of a refund through paypal will work. regards simon

I've just been on the 'Eye of the Storm' website that Les linked to, logged in under my old Maelstrom registration. It worked, and still shows the last two outstanding items from an order that I placed at the end of August. However the 'Moneyback' that I'd earnt has vanished.
To be continued…………

HI Gravett islander, I tried that and my email was not reconized on the new site, so my options to pursue my order have hit a brickwall I am afraid. I have lodged a refund request with paypal as unable to see any other option.
regards
simon

Likewise, followed the link, put in my name and password and logged in just like the old site. And my Moneyback has gone to zero too. My part order which they sent a few days ago is still there being processed so maybe its going to arrive one day after all.

I am in the same position as a couple of the posters above, I can log in and see the 'part order' being processed but all the money back is gone.

I suppose its a step in the right direction, only time will tell.

I heard on the grapevine a few months ago that GW were going to implement a new system where retailers would be limited to only having one order per week and limited to 6 copies of any one stock item, I don't know how accurate this is as it was just second hand rumours and possibly just gossip!

However if that is correct and GW have indeed done this, then this is where it will have all started to go majorly wrong for Maelstrom Games, as they had orders for multiple dozens of copies of the new 40K starter box, obvioudsly because of their discounts.

This could be the start of GW stopping other retailers from selling their products completely.

Time for some nostalgia: TMP link

Just over two years ago one TMPer posted "how do these guys stay in business?" Answer…

More like GW won't let them sell their stuff,at a lower price than anyone else ? LES

Not sure if you're making a joke, but no. :)

There are rumours that GW will limit independent retailers to sales of a set value – the sum mentioned at "Maelstrom" was 70k a year. The chap at the store said that on a new release week alone they can take nearly that amount.

@Gothy Beans,
No it wasn't meant as a joke.As that's what P'ed BF off earlier this year.
LES

From what I understand GW does not limit the amount of stock for companies that can afford to pay and are not in too much debt.

What has had a detrimental effect may be the limited time GW now gives for new releases. Previously the discounters had months notice so could take oodles of pre-orders, ensuring a decent cash flow to pay off invoices and order new stock. With GW limiting the information on new releases this will have impacted on the discount model.

Phillip, GW DO limit the numbers of certain releases to independent stores in the UK, already. The rumour is that they'll be ramping up this policy.

My local store is in a very healthy state and (thankfully) well supported by at least 4 clubs BUT the owner has told me that he is limited to making one GW order per week and GW also put a cap on the number of new release models he can include in each order. It's not a case of him being unable to pay the bills but just GW trying to force people to buy directly and so subsidize their outlets.

Hmmm, I guess not everybody made it across to EOTS, or it's a work in progress. Yes the remaining "moneyback" has disappeared from my account too, but as that was about 20p I'm not too fussed about it.

Anyone who had a Maelstrom account now has an Eye of the Storm account. I've tried it and I logged into Eye of the Storm with my Maelstrom password. Any unsent orders seem to have been passed across from Maelstrom to Eye of the Storm but data on past orders has dissappeared. Looks like they actually mean to carry on in a "business as usual" manner under the new name. Things could be messy for a while as all the cancelled orders, paypal disputes and credit card chargebacks work their way through the banks etc.

Errr is that not illegal under the Data Protection act..?? Maelstrom games is one seperate legal entity to Eye of the storm, so passing on names/addresses etc is illegal.

This might be one to put through to the data commissioner. They take the selling/trading of details very very seriously where explicit permission is not granted!

Paypal say that they can't do anything with my order and just state to contact Maelstrom directly (Is this because Maelstrom may possibly have deleted their Paypal account?)Impossible to make contact with Maelstrom.

If you are in the UK.. and get no luck from your credit card charge back or paid via cheque or paypal and paypal won't resolve it. You could try..

try: link

It works a treat and don't be put off by it looking complex. Public Contact details off comnpany house. Gives mailing address as follows. So you could try writing them as well.

Name & Registered Office:
MAELSTROM GAMES LIMITED
106 CARTER LANE
MANSFIELD
NOTTINGHAMSHIRE
NG18 3DH
Company No. 04724863

Status: Active
Date of Incorporation: 07/04/2003
Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature of Business (SIC):
47990 – Other retail sale not in stores, stalls or markets

Accounting Reference Date: 30/04
Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/04/2012 (TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL)
Next Accounts Due: 31/01/2014
Last Return Made Up To: 07/04/2012
Next Return Due: 05/05/2013

Last Members List: 07/04/2012
Previous Names:
No previous name information has been recorded over the last 20 years.

If a company has taken money without a reasonable expectation that an order will be fulfilled the directors could be guilty of Wrongful Trading or even Fraudulent Trading under the Insolvency Act 1986. If the former they could become personally liable for debts, if the latter they could be charged with fraud in a criminal court. Either circumstance could also render them to disqualification as a director of a limited company under the Companies Act 1987.

This has been posted on the Maelstrom web site

OFFICIAL NOTICE

Maelstrom Games Ltd. has ceased trading and will enter liquidation at some point over the next few months.

A creditor of Maelstrom Games Ltd., Wayland Games Ltd., issued a Statutory Demand under section 123(1)(a) or 221(1)(a) of the Insolvency Act, 1986 on the 17th of October, 2012 for �99,773.61 plus costs of issuing and serving the demand.

This debt was purchased from Simple Miniature Games by Wayland Games Ltd on the 1st of October, 2012 and payment of this debt was demanded in full by Wayland Games after seven days had elapsed. Unfortunately, Maelstrom Games Ltd. could not pay Wayland Games Ltd. this debt in full within those seven days.

Previous to the debt purchase, Maelstrom Games Ltd. was servicing the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games at the rate of �500 per working day, claimed by the creditor when convenient for him by charging a credit card owned by Maelstrom Games Ltd., which had been occurring since mid-June and continued to late September, the last payment being taken on the 25th. Maelstrom Games Ltd. did not cancel these payments and were not aware that this debt was being transferred.

Maelstrom Games Ltd. offered to pay the debt purchased by Wayland Games Ltd. in the same manner as it had paid Simple Miniature Games, but this was not taken up by Wayland Games Ltd.

Maelstrom Games Ltd. can only apologise to those customers whose orders have not been fulfilled as it is now impossible for Maelstrom Games Ltd. to fulfil them, excepting those for Mierce Miniatures products (fulfilled by Mierce Miniatures in November) and Battlefront Miniatures products (fulfilled by Maelstrom Games in partnership with Battlefront Miniatures and Maunsfeld Gaming in November), all of which will be sent by Maelstrom Games Ltd. Other customer orders for certain ranges may be fulfilled in the future and any customers whose orders can be fulfilled will be contacted by Maelstrom Games in due course.

All creditors will be issued the relevant notices by the assigned Insolvency Practitioner when Maelstrom Games Ltd. enters liquidation.

That's an interesting chain of events.

Did Wayland seriously expect Maelstrom to be able to pay ?

If not ….

Four pages of speculation and second guessing and I notice not one person from Maelstrom has been on to set the record straight. Meh! I think I will give Eye of the Storm a wide berth and take my business elsewhere.

Subjct to a VERY good explantion, I'm not very impressed with Wayland's behaviour either…

Does that look like Wayland games shutting down a competitor?

Very much so. They probably reckon to make up the 100k in new customers in pretty short order. Well, not from me matey …

I had heard that Wayland had bought some of Maelstrom's debt but didn't believe it because it would mean that Wayland Games were trying to close Maelstrom down so yet another tarder off my list!