"Early 80s Danes" Topic

I'm off on another tangent that we wargamers are so well known for. I have so many projects now that my wallet is screaming for mercy.

I'm planning a Soviet/WP rush across the north German plain c.1980-82 in 1/285. So it's Soviets, GDR, and Poles v. UK, FRG, Dutch, Belgians, and Danes. I have a good start on my painting, but I must admit that the Danish Army is a total mystery to me. Can anyone help me out with Danish TO&E, types of equipment (Leo1?), paint schemes, uniforms, etc. Thanks for the help guys!!

Check "Micromark" army lists:
link

I dont have their homepage handy but you can find it through Goofle. They have 1,000s of orbats.

A good place to start would be over at the micro armor mayhem website ( link ) where they've put together a campaign for around that period in Denmark ( link ) .

They've also put a Danish army page together with pictures of Danish Army vehicles painted up ( link ) .

And I think they've got Denmark in the NATO_OOB downloadable from the main page.

The Denmark campaign could be pretty good as you could put any units you like in there. 'Armies of NATO's Central Front' postulated the Warsaw Pact sending in Polish Marines in an amphibious attack along the Danish Eastern seaboard with East German and Soviet ground units attacking overland round Lubeck and heading north. All good stuff : )

And you can get to use Danish M41's against T-72s.

Hope this helps,

B

There is nothing like a Dane

It definitely gives me a good start. During Korea, Luxembourg contributed a 500 man Jeep equipped recce unit. Did Luxembourg have any significant contribution to NATO in the early 80's?

Hi HPHD

This on the Danish army from an old Jane's of 1981

Strength: 22,000 (14,000 conscripts)
Reserves: Field Army Reserve 41,000, Local Defence Forces 24,000, Other 10,000
Home Guard 55,000

Commands:
Western Command
Eastern Command
Bornholm Region

Operational:

Field Army- Covering Force (5 Armd Bde each 1 Mech Inf Bn, 1 Tank Bn, 1 Arty Bn) On mobilisation add 1 coy to each unit, then add 1 Mech Inf Bn and 1 Motor Inf Bn to each Bde.

Local Defence Force- Reservists equipped for defensive operations

Home Guard- Mostly small-arms

Total Units:
5 Armd Bde HQ
5 Tank Bn
10 Mech Inf Bn
1 Inf Bn (Bornholm)
5 Arty Bn
3 Eng Coy
1 Recce Bn
3 Recce Sqn
Some additional Mot Inf Bns

Equipment:

Tanks-
200 Centurion
120 Leopard I
48 M41 Walker-Bulldog

APCs-
630 M113
68 M106

Artillery-
72 M109 155mm SPG
12 M115 203mm
96 M114/59 155mm
144 M101 105mm
? Honest John SSM

Anti-Aircraft-
? 40mm L70 AA
? Redeye SAM

Anti-Tank-
250 M40A1 106mm RCL
? TOW ATGW

Mortars-
? M-50 120mm mortar
? M/57 81mm mortar

Around this era the armour was deployed as follows-

1 Mechanised Division (Jutland)
2 Independent Mechanised Brigades (Zealand)
1 Battlegroup (Bornholm)

Jutland
120 MBT Leopard 1A3 (40 in each Brigade x3)
18 light tank M41 Walker Bulldog (Recon Battalion)
70 Centurion tank MK.III with 84mm gun (Anti-tank Squadrons in reserve)

Zealand
106 MBT Centurion tank MK.V & MK.V2 with 105mm L7A1 gun (40 in each Brigade x2 and 26 in Reserve units)
40 Centurion tank MK.III with 84mm gun (Anti-tank Squadrons in Light-Battlegroups x4)
18 light tank M41 Walker Bulldog (Recon Battalion)

Bornholm
16 light tank M41 Walker Bulldog (1 Tank Squadron and 1 Recon Squadron)

As the 80s went on the Danes bought more Leopards and started retiring the Cents, or placing them in reseve.

Oh from same source on Luxembourg

Strength 630
Reserves 430

1 Inf Bn permanently assigned to the ACE Mobile Force – lightly armed but well-trained. Plans to raise a second Bn.

They have a few 25-pdrs re-bored to 105mm now used for ceremonial saluting purposes, some TOW and they used to be equipped with a variety of RCLs.

This from Wiki- link

1st Infantry Battalion

Compulsory military service was abolished in 1967 and the 1st Infantry Battalion was established comprising a Headquarters and Services unit, two Motorized Infantry Companies and a Reconnaissance Company with two Recce Platoons and an Anti-Tank Platoon. From 1968 onwards it formed a part of NATO's ACE Mobile Force (Land) (AMF(L)).

In 1985 the Battalion was replaced by a reinforced company of, an AMF Company with two Recce Platoons and an Anti-Tank Platoon, a Forward Air Control team, a National Support Element for logistics and a Medical Support element. In 2002 the AMF(L) was dissolved.

Can anyone point me towards camo schemes for vehicles and uniform patterns?

My c.1984 Danish troops are Territorial Reserve, which includes both Mech Inf (M113s) and truck mounted infantry in mixed Battlalions, M125s and truckmounted 81mm Mtrs, TOW and 106mm RCL on Jeeps, Centurions (20pdr and 105mm), M41 Walker Bulldogs (90mm)used as Recce with Jeeps. I have them based for CWC.

I have used them in games against Poles, Soviet Naval Infantry and Soviet Airborne in the way BattlerBritain suggests. I also have USMC and Canadian AMF(L) forces to use in Denmark or Norway. No Brits yet, but someday…

The Leopards and the other "good kit" was in the Field Army Reserve south of/at the German-Danish Border.

Micromark lists are an excellent resource, I found them most helpful.

Brian

Just out of curiosity, what battle rifle did they carry? FAL?

Have a look at the orbats page on fireandfury.com – I've got orbats for the Danes and Luxembourgeois there (the Luxembourg orbat is tacked on the end of the Belgian orbat). The Danish orbat and array of kit is quite complicated and I've tried to make sense of who had what. Sorry I can't give the direct links – the work computer won't let me access the page.

The Luxemborug Battalion had three infantry companies and a Recce/Anti-Tank Company, as well as an artillery cadre in the Belgian Artillery School (which in the run-up to war, was to form a full battery and be equipped with 105mm Light Guns supplied from British stocks). The whole battalion was motorised in Land Rovers.

The main part of the Luxembourg Battalion was attached to I Belgian Corps, but a single company, plus elements of the Recce/AT Company, was assigned to AMF(L).

In 1985, one of the three infantry companies was converted to a second Recce/AT Company and the battalion was essentially split into two separate halves, with a half-battalion group, each of an infantry company and a Recce/AT Company, being allocated to I Be Corps and to AMF(L).

Uesugi, the Luxembourgeois had FNs, while the Danes had G3s. However, many Danish reservists were still using Garands.

Mark, is it just me? I don't find an orbats page on forehand fury.com. Where is it hiding?

Don't overlook the opportunity for air and naval battles, and amphibious landings.

I believe they were still using those lovely Drakens at the time, and some very nice looking Fast Attack naval craft, including those of the Willemoes class (PT Dockyard now makes the latter in 1/700th scale, if you want to try out the naval side of things).

See here for a battle report on a small, night action skirmish around the islands:

TMP link

The Danes were charged with laying mines across the straits, should hostilities commence, so the Soviet vessels couldn't break out of the Baltic, to hook up with forces from the Red Banner Northern Fleet, or to threaten ships in the North Sea and English Channel.

Rumor has it Danish tank crews were instructed on how to engage naval vessels close to shore, with their main guns as well.

Also, apparently there were secret agreements with the Swedes to permit NATO subs to hide in their waters, should that be necessary during hostilities.

It's unclear on whether Sweden would have joined in with NATO to repel a Soviet attack, if they weren't threatened, but secret, high level discussions were conducted between them during the Cold War, and Sweden received a lot of US/NATO armament (air-to-air missiles for their jets, etc.).

It was also understood that should a nuclear attack be needed, many NATO jet bombers would overfly Sweden on their routes Eastward, in order to avoid the heaviest WARPAC air defenses in East Germany, Poland, and adjacent areas.

HPHD,

Sorry again for not being able to give you the direct link. I'll post them up when I get home in 5 hours or so. From memory: if you go to the fireandfury.com home page, there's a drop-down menu there for the 'Battlefront: WW2' rules. Go to that page and then find the BF: WW2 support page – there's a drop-down menu for errata, addenda, optional rules, scenarios and orbats. Click on orbats and you'll find all the Cold War orbats at the bottom of the list. Somewhere in there is also a 'Battlefront: Modern' playtest page, which includes direct links to the orbats.

Mako,

Yup, the Danes used Drakens throughout the 1980s, as well as Starfighters and Super-Sabres in the early 80s, though these latter two types were steadily replaced by F-16s as the 80s drew on.

They also had good taste in funky little helicopters; using the OH-6 Cayuse in the early 80s, but replacing them during the decade with TOW-armed Hughes 500MD Defenders and Aerospatiale Fennecs.

I can't see a separate OB forum but this link has a lot of modern OB

Ah, here, link

Hi Dragon,

The orbats aren't on the F&F forum pages. Click on the 'Home' link at the bottom of the page, then follow the menus from there.

Cheers,

Mark

Re Danish tanks – the Danes pushed a lot of their Cents and all of their M41s through a major upgrade programme in the mid-1980s. The main upgrade was an improved fire-control system, including laser-rangefinder and thermal sights. The upgraded Cents were designated as Centurion Mk 5/2 DK. The upgraded M41, designated M41 DK-1, is possibly one of my favourite tanks:

That photo shows the typical Danish paint-scheme rather well – bands of black and green, like the British Army's standard scheme, but with a distinctly brighter shade of green than that used by the British.

Interestingly, some recce Leopards and M41s were painted a very cool all-black scheme. Some Leopard-equipped tank battalions in the late 1980s also experimented with a sort of 'Astroturf' coating on all flat surfaces of the tank (flocked tanks, anyone?).

Home at last! Here's the BF: WW2/Modern orbats page:

link

Here's Denmark: PDF link

And here are Belgium and Luxembourg:

PDF link

Hi I think you need this:

link

Combined Arms has a full orbat and campaign with an East German, Soviet and Polish attack in Northern Germany. reinforced by the Danes (and British and US), Maps, OOB and reinforcement schedules are included.

The rules are 1 stand is 1 platoon and so the Orbats are geared for this, but given you are planning to cover this area (the campaign is called "Landjut") he hard work has been done for you,

Thanks loads guys!!

IainJL: I agree that I need that, but it seems to have gone out of print long ago and sadly, an Internet search turned up no second-hand copies

Can you PM me? I might be able to help you out.

Iain

I do like Combined Arms. But you can't have my copy, sorry! :o)

Iain, you must have your PM's turned off