"WarHammer 40K - First Thoughts" Topic

Right I was reading it as I built a couple of servers and supported six testers so didn't get too far just yet but managed to read the basic rules section.

1. Its much better written than previously. Explanations are decent.

2. It looks a tighter game but one where there will be a lot more movement (typical after I convert all my Rough Riders to carry PPSh which I was counting as shotguns its now better to call them LasGuns again as they can shoot and move with them).

3. Assaults are going to be deadly due to the new Sweeping Adavance rule (basically if you break in combat and get out initiatived then you all die) but balanced by the fact that everyone within 2" fights at full value then just like CityFight large combat units will tend to have the advantage rather than just five tooled up guys (the thought of 20 Orcs with Choppas piling into five Marines is nasty).

4. Production values are much better and organisdation is ten times better. It reads like a single book and not three bound together.

5. It has an index! Not sure how good but it does have one.

If I wasn't up to my uxters in Berkeley preparations I'd play it tonight...

Sebastian

Thanks, Sebastian. Let us know when you have perused it further!

Are you familiar with Void? If so, do you like WH40K better and why?

I plan to buy one or the other.

Al

HI got mine and first impression is a bit strange? the

Rules are ok and will work fine.

The artwork is nice as we expect from GW

There is no stat line of anything in the book?

The scenario and missions are cool

They are not telling the regulars anything new?

The pictures and details sometimes are a bit hazy

The darkness they said they wouid give us is only a shadow

It leaves me waiting for the NEW codex books ????

I think I expected a bit more and got some less

Allen57 on either void or 40k?? 40k all the time

Tony

Allen57: I haven't seen the new one, but if it isn't a MAJOR improvement, I would go for VOID. Alternating activations make VOID a game of tactics and IGOUGO makes 40K a game of... silliness. And, you can play VOID in the 40K universe if you like the 40K-miniatures.

Otherwise, have you checked out Stargrunt II?

Actually, I have only found 40K lacked tactics when played in silly ways: ie. little or no terrain, everyone stand in the open and don't bother with cover, etc, etc.

Turn sequencing has nothing to do with tactics. OTOH, Players have everything to do with tactics!

The silliness of 40k isn't exactly the rules. The silliness comes from the fact that GW encourages players to play with *tons* of miniatures on the board - thereby making terrain and performing maneuvers absolutely pointless.

I know, I know. GW is in the business of selling miniatures. I know this. But c'mon. There are other ways to encourage people to buy miniatures and STILL play a game. Other companies have done this (Privateer Press comes to mind). You make players want to buy *everything* that comes out (because they're so cool) even if you're only playing a game with less than 50 miniatures.

err... actually altfritz I disagree. Turn sequencing greatly affects tactics. Play 40K with an alternating sequence and you'll see what I mean. I'm not saying one turn structure is better than the other (I have my opinions but apparently voicing displeasure about certian aspects of a game I've been playing for 15 years is tantamount to hijacking a thread), but turn sequencing has a lot to do with what tactics are effective. Some ideas will work better in an IGOUGO situation, others in a staggered situation.

Timing, in particular, becomes more important when turns are alternated. Feints become much more effective when your opponent is faced with responding before any other units have tipped their hands. OTOH, IGOUGO lends itself well to heroic charges into HTH. But, like I said, there is nothing wrong with either approach. They're just different.

Oh and Roosterman, Ya hit the nail on the head. Necromunda is sooo much better than 40K 2.0 even though they're based on the same mechanics.

For larger games I'd vote for VOID anyday. Nice, less expensive, IMO more tactically flexible with the Alternate Activations. Minis are good, esp Kev White's. Decent game at a decent price. For smaller sized games in the 40K universe - Necromunda is the only way to go.

I'd like to try Necromunda, but the minis, whew, are they pricey! It seems you have to mail order most of them, which sucks.

I have VOID the box and many handfulls of minis I bought at %50 off, so that's good. I like the rules, they seem to resemble many 40K rules, but I like the d10 spread better. Reminds me of playing Orc Boyz against Empire Handgunners: they both have strength 3?!! That doesn't conjure up images of tough, muscle bound Orcs in my mind.

Anyhow, I'm on hold until the Koralon show themselves. Also, the VOID Necromunda-esque set is due this Fall. We'll see if Urban Mammoth can deliver. A company's health. If GW has one thing going for it, it's that it'll be around for a lot longer than most minis companies, which is a plus.

"I'd like to try Necromunda, but the minis, whew, are they pricey! It seems you have to mail order most of them, which sucks."

1) dont use GW minis - go for a cheaper option with A.N.Y. Other company

2) goto wargames conventions and buy GW stuff off the 2nd hand tables.

Wouldn't it be great if Reaper did a sci-fi line? I know they won't, but...wouldn't it be great?

Actually Reaper is working on a 25mm (28mm?) line based on CAV. It probably won't be out for a while but you should be able to find some greens on thier site.

And to pull this back on topic:

An INDEX!?! halle-fricken-luyah! Just for that I take back all the nast things i've written about GW on this site.

Well, maybe not. But still, that is the most encuraging thing I've heard about this edition.

I keep meaning to try Necromunda. If so, it will be with relatively few GW figures. That line is very pricey, even for GW. On the other hand, some of the figs I would press into service will be GW (Imperial Marines, in particular).

On using too many minis: I have never seen so many minis crammed onto a board as in the official Void demo game at Claymore. I couldn't see how anyone could move at all!

Having had a weekend to peruse it.

1. Its fluff light and most of the fluff is pictures. Each race gets half an A4 page on it no more.

2. The artwork is very Blanche, it returns to the old Rogue Trader look quite often.

3. The scenarios are a vast improvement on the previous ones being a base scenario with a load of options (so night fight is no longer a seperate scenario but rather an option on the Cleanse mission).

4. Victory points now often are awarded for keeping your guys alive not just dispatching the enemy.

5. 40K in 40Mins (now combat Patrol) and Kill Team are there and nicely tidied up to boot.

Now compared to VOID? Well I know VOID and i-Kore of old so here goes...

1. i-Kore weren't friendly, their customer service was poor and the few decent folks I met or talked with soon left. They were an unpleasant bunch. Urban Mammoth may or may not be the same.

Games Workshop, hold onto your hats folks, have always been kind, attentive, willing to listen, rectify mistakes and courteous. I really cannot say a word against them.

2. VOID is fiddly compared to WH40K it uses a chart to cross-index characteristics and that becomes very hard to do after your second pint. WH40K is brutally simple and can safely be played after the second pint.

3. VOID's alternative action sequence is the most basic of the kind and open to massive abuse (hello four individual enforcers with no extra equipment). It leads to obsessing over individual units movements rather than the grand sweep and often feels like you are playing a game rather than directing a battle. WH40K's IGO-UGO sequence at least lets you co-ordinate attacks and combined with the new obscurement, concealment and shooting and assaulting restrictions has removed some of the steamroller tactics that were possible. For example in the new rules you would pair fire warriors and kroot units. The Fire warriors bounce to within 12" and let fly twice, then the kroot steam into the unit, this works much better than both assaulting the unit.

For my money I'd buy Chain Reaction 2.0 from Ed at Two Hour Wargames, followed by StarGrunt II, the WH40K and wouldn't touch VOID.

Sebastian

"""For my money I'd buy Chain Reaction 2.0 from Ed at Two Hour Wargames, followed by StarGrunt II, the WH40K and wouldn't touch VOID."""

I'd flip the last two. I find that every game has abusable systems-- it's not really the system that's at fault but the people abusing it. How does that go? "Don't play with gits!"

I need to get a copy of CR 2.0. I don't get the suggestion for using Stargrunt. It won't give you a 40k feel at all. It is the complete opposite. Real tactics tend to work with it.

Personally, I am using an Ares Sci-fi variant. I have played games with it for Warzone and Star Wars. Had a great time.

Thanks,

John

Maybe becuase I play Imerial Guard and my regular opponent plays Tau StarGrunt works just fine for us, that is two 'shooty' armies that avoid mixing it up in hand to hand...

Hmmmm, I'd play Ares scifi for smaller games with more emnphasis on individuals, and give Starslayer / Defiance my usual thumbs up for around 15-20 infantry and a coupla tanks. The new Defiance should totally rock the house, with variants for Supernatural, Bug Hunt and Horror genres if I hear right..... perfect for getting a variety of 40K flavour into a more realism-oriented game.... that plays faster.

Nice comment about Ares Sci-fi. I rarely comment on it since it's in rough playtest format. However, the rules work very well and allow you to put tons of toys on the table and plays VERY fast.

John

You wouldn't touch Void, Sebastian? I think it's one of the better miniature games out there and the book is $50. The alternative action sequence makes it much more interesting. Bonus is that I don't have to wait 30 minutes for my opponent to finish his turn in a big game. But if you play the game drunk...well...I guess a game of "quarters" would be intellectually stimulating as well. I am desperately trying to unload my 40k and WH Fantasy stuff in favor of Void and Confrontation. Have you looked at eBay lately? GW is not going for very much.

Sorry, meant to say the book is **not** $50.00

A thousand pardons.

Actually the alternative action sequence is very, very poor and results in a lot of meta-gaming of the type that well I won't move that unit until he moves that one, plus me fielding a lot of single figure units (moving last is the way to go).

Added to which I was very involved in VOID 1.0 and 1.1 putting on demo games and the like and basically the company I-Kore became very nasty. From what I hear the new owners are the old owners recycled. These are not people you want to do business with (ask your FLGS how badly they were burned).

The game is very clunky to no purpose - hence my drunk comment. Its more to do with the fact that I'm not a teenager any more and don't want that cluttered a game.

No I'll keep playing a wee bit of 40K, a wee bot of HOTT and a lot of our very simple homebrew games.

Sebastian

pitching in... Viod/urban war vs 40k/necromunda
Necromunda is now free rules wise, downloadable and community maintained(kinda)
Urban war is still a pay for format. But its in the form of a bi-monthly magazine that will no doubt be 2 pages of new rules and 30 pages of errata.
40k is excellent for fast, sweeping,grand battles. Viod is excellent for slow, gratuitously picky, scissor-paper-stone tactics.
Now dont get me wrong, i fully hope that Urban Mammoth gets over the I-kore legacy, and succeeds.
But the rules are still too ropey, and feel unfinished.

Sebastian wrote "Actually the alternative action sequence is very, very poor and results in a lot of meta-gaming of the type that well I won't move that unit until he moves that one, plus me fielding a lot of single figure units (moving last is the way to go)".

Sebastian if you are saying this in general you are simply wrong. If saying it about Void I won't squirm as much. There are several sci-fi games out there that use that movement system or something similar. They are quite good and have restrictions which prevent what you complain about (1 man units). IGOUGO has a function. However, without having an Overwatch/Wait or Hold action available I debate how realistic the game plays.

Thanks,

John

Void has been teetering on the edge of disappearing from the market completely. 40k is quite secure and will be around for a long time to come.

Definitely in the US it has. Yep 40k version 36 will be available in 2017.

:-)

John