"Paper Napoleonic battalions as 3D boxes for smaller scales" Topic

Hi all, been lurking on the paper board for some time as I'm a cardboard engineer of sorts in my day job (mainly packaging and promotional stuff) so I know my tabs from my slots.
Have had an idea rolling about in my head for a while to create smaller scale battalions as 3D boxes.

Here are some pics to show you what I mean.

There are some more pics, blurb and 2 samples for those that would like to print them and have a look at the following link:

link

Still a WIP/concept at this point but would love to know what everyone thinks?

Cheers
CG
aka Geoff

I think they are pretty neat, but I think it is something that you cannot play while towering over the table, as the geometric shapes of the formations remind me of office buildings. I'd have to see them in person. If I saw them and liked them, yes, it is a product I would buy.

Clever idea.

Love it great idea. I think the challenge will be cavalry.If you can get them looking right then I'm in.

Geoff,

That is really interesting – and very creative!

It has a cetain "antique" flavor about it, as if it was really something from the 19th century. There is more visual appeal the more you look at the samples.

Would you think to attempt to make them with maps/terrain/playing surface at 1-to-1 scale ? It seems to me that you can really see the geometry of formatiom changes with this method : 1er bataillon of the xxe de ligne represented in 3 models line, colmn and square …. or even with 6 (late period) models, one for each of its pelotons which can be re-arranged into the various formations that were most common?

Also, did you ever think of 3D printing them?
link

Very impressive. Thank you for sharing!

Hmm, they look pretty close to 1:1 to me. The column looks like is 17X16 in number or thereabouts. Hard for me to count. I guess it depends on what size battalions you have but this seems awfully close to 1:1 battalions to me.

Interesting. Personally I would prefer them all to be in blocks of either 2 ranks deep for British and 3 ranks deep for French, so these could then be arranged in columns, lines or squares as appropriate.

Incidentally the square formation was not actually formed with a diagonal between the front and side companies, but more like the effect of placing solid bricks at right angles on a corner.

I once built full strength British and French battalions out of 6mm blocks (Eagle 6) to help me to understand drill regulations. These card blocks could do the same far more cheaply. During the Napoleonic era wooden blocks, with figures painted on them, were used for this same purpose.

Rod

"During the Napoleonic era wooden blocks, with figures painted on them, were used for this same purpose."

Yes! – these instantly reminded me of those blocks.

I really like those!

Hi all and thanks for your comments.
I was surprised that this hadn't been done in paper by someone else, Rod M I was very interested to hear that wooden blocks had been used in the past (didn't know that).
I had initially toyed with the idea of using smaller blocks so that people could make their own formations (a paper black powder era lego if you like), it would have been more authentic for a square formation as Rod and Seroga mentioned. My intent was to create them as single items to save time making them up but I could be swayed by the weight of opinion. It might mean I could actually illustrate flank, centre and command blocks.
AonghusONia, cavalry may be challenging but not as challenging as artillery I fear.
Still food for thought, definitely. I'll make up some smaller blocks and test them out. I've also started illustrating some cavalry based on some period illustrations. I'll try to post an update soon.

Thanks again to all for taking the time to check it out.

Cheers
CG
aka Geoff

Well, you are already making three boxes for a single battalion and the square looks pretty complex. Having four or so company boxes doe snot seem that much of a stretch.

Nice. I've thought of doing something similar for some time, inspired partly by those 19th century wooden blocks already mentioned and by some concept work Dale over on the old PaperWorlds forum did years ago. (He has a blog here now but isn't so much into paper figures these days: daleswargames.blogspot.co.uk/)

British Napoleonic squares were, in fact, usually oblong rather than square; and would certainly be better reproduced by simple square-ended blocks put together. Smaller 2 and 3 rank blocks representing companies would be more flexible, if perhaps a bit fiddly.

It will be interesting to see where you go with this! Good luck and thanks.

Cheers,

David
nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.co.uk

I have put some time into a similar construction, but aimed at 17th century units instead of Napoleonic. You're right about infantry being the easiest arm to replicate in this medium; I haven't found a satisactory solution for cavalry or artillery, either. Yet. I'll let you know if I come up with anything.

One thing my experiments have shown: you might get a slightly more convincing visual if the background color was darker. Period artists almost always depict the interior of close order units in deep shadow. Photographs of close order units (from later in the 19th century, obviously) confirm this effect. A darker gray, or even black, will make the uniform colors pop and give the block a little more depth.

Anyway, very nice work. Keep at it, and thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Jeff

It's an excellent idea! However, I'm not sure what formation those solid squares are meant to represent? The British unit in line should have only two ranks not five. The square is too big in relation to the line. It should have a quarter of the frontage.

This is FANTASTIC!

Great concept and execution.

Wow!

Now why didn't I think of that?

Another classic idea, brilliantly simple & for those who do big btns of tiny figures, like the chap with the rice army, so easy.

Bad news is I do not think you will make your fortune, and there may be small figure manufacturers who will start sticking pins in dolls…

Cavalry will be tough and Artillery more so but congratulations on a great concept.

rabbit

I tried doing this, but am not artistic enough. Love these

EXCELLENT!! Great for board games like C&C: Napoleonic

Terrific idea. Well done.

My similar ideas did not come to an end due to lack of artistic and technical skills.

All the more I admire the work and be grateful for the generousity of Carpet General.

I'd also favour the idea of creating smaller blocks (maybe mounted on wood) to represent companies, which then can be put into the relevant formations.

With this method one could delve into a second (or third …) period at moderate costs.
Anyone interested to expand into the SYW this way?

I love this idea for a large scale tactical game – you could play across reproductions of actual maps. Reminds me a lot of the sort of scale you can play on computer games but has been very hard to represent on the tabletop.
I like the idea of using these at a "campaign" level and then when opposing forces meet changing to a smaller scale – again, a bit like contemporary wargame computer games do.
Also, love how they remind one of the blocks used in reality!

Hi and thanks for your comments.
I've mangaed to do a bit of work on the block based version. I've tried to incorporate your suggestions. 30mm frontage, 15mm deep with 3 ranks.

Also here are some initial illustrations for some cavalry.

The 6 company French version for printing is at the blog here:
link

cheers
CG

Really nice job!!!

If you do Seven Years War I'm in. I also thought of gluing them to blocks for a little weight and durability.

Best,

Don

Brilliant idea, neatly executed! I'll buy some as and when, especially if you expand into tricorns.

Some suggestions: In order to soften the "office block" edge, could it help having the front and rear man right up against the edge of the side flaps, so as to "fuse" them into the front and rear views, instead of having a black edge space?

I'd have thought a 40mm frontage might be more generally useful, but don't take my word for it.

If you're now going for "company blocks" (which I agree with), might there be a point in leaving a tiny white pom-pom on the French shakos, for people to colour if they wish? Just musing mind you, not saying I'd do so.

The cavalry look good, but still rather side-on perhaps. For further inspiration, you may wish to look at tin flats, e.g.

OR
link

Keep 'em coming!

Oh and wouldn't drummers be in the rear rank, rather than out front?

could it help having the front and rear man right up against the edge of the side flaps, so as to "fuse" them into the front and rear views, instead of having a black edge space?

Definitely.

Also good, Don's idea about putting a block inside the box to give it some positional stability on the board. If the block was too close to the size of the box it might prevent it from closing neatly at the corners, but you could glue a block slightly smaller than the box to the inside of the bottom before closing it up, which would give it some weight while leaving room for the tabs.

CG: you might consider going with a slightly more complex box-end shape for the cavalry, to capture the look of a mounted unit. It would be slightly more difficult to glue up, but the improved appearance might be worth it. The cavalry figures would have to assume a bit more restrained pose than the one above, though, thus . . .

Lots of interesting comments and suggestions.
I think the key one to decide is the frontage size. I may be opening a can o' worms here, what does everyone think is the best size 30mm 40mm? The same for all nations, eras and conflicts? A standard size makes my life easier but I know that wargamers like things to be as accurate as possible, they're a funny bunch you know.

I'm doing a bit of homework regarding company formations for post 1808 French and will add some NCOs, musicians etc to the companies. Command (fanion guard) is difficult as it was likely independant of the companies as were the drummers but I'd like to include them on the blocks some where. Artistic licence will need to be employed.

I'm going to see what further suggestions are made, go away for a couple of days, make some more physical samples and then I'll post some more pics.

Cheers
CG

The graphics are nice, but they're sort of phalanx-like. Napoleonic formations were actually pretty thin. (A line would be only three men deep, by about 200 men wide.)

Making them look more like Napoleonic units might even make the assembly easier, as you'd just need a single thin strip of cardboard standing erect for each line, rather than having to fold them into "boxes."

"30mm frontage, 15mm deep with 3 ranks"
"is the best size 30mm 40mm? "

It looks like you are aiming at a replacement for existing "28mm" miniatures. You show 30 men in a French compagnie, again like a base made up of typical miniatures.

But you can do something with these that is really a problem with regular miniatures : 1 to 1 scale (somehing like 4x the length of of the compagnie box you have posted here.
I know that there will have the issues of "what rules ?" and "do we have enough room for more than couple of battalions on the table ?". But you have an answer to a major problem, "how can I manage to buy and paint 120-150 figures per company ?". And it is not really anything more for you to offer 1 to 1 scale, at least as an alternative.

Great work !

My tuppence worth is -

This will only really appeal to those wanting to do massive battles, so keep the scale small.

Ease of construction is paramount as we'll be putting hundreds of units together.

Don't get hung-up on keeping the purists happy with frontage, ranks, officer/drummer placement. These units will only be looked at from a distance and so such things are irrelevant. I fear a compromise will have to be made regarding unit depth etc. in the interests of ease of construction and stability.

En-mass these will look fantastic covering the table so keep in mind that these units are for effect not absolute historical accuracy.

I think breaking units down to individual companies is not viable for the massed battle effect you should be aiming for.

Whatever you do however, I think that it should visually "look good", like you really are Wellington or that short garlic encrusted meglomaniac. Thin long lines might be more accurate but will look bad on the table.

Just my thoughts. I'd certainly buy this product though.

There is a description of young officers in a battalion using wooden blocks, with figures painted on them, to practice battalion evolutions at the start of the novel "A True Gentleman Volunteer" by Adrian Goldsworthy, the first of his Peninsula War series. One of the officers inks some glasses onto one figure to make it look like one of the other subalterns.

Rod

Hi CC Butt, the strips of card have been done elsewhere, I was just trying something new.

Seroga, the beauty of the blocks is that if you want to print enough you could make a 1 to 1 battalion just glue 4 blocks together per company.

Cheers
CG

"I think breaking units down to individual companies is not viable for the massed battle effect you should be aiming for."
Bretwalda, this was my original intent but I have to admit that the flexibility of the blocks approach is starting to appeal, I need to make them up to see how much work is involved, I may change my mind if its hard work. Perhaps there is room to offer both alternatives.

Rod Mac, the more I hear about period blocks the more I like the idea.

I'm going to make up a pile of blocks today and see how it turns out.

Cheers
CG

I probably would not wargame with these as such, but they would be excellent to make some 1:1 infantry battalions and cavalry regiments, so as to be able to practice the evolutions in the drill regulations, which is a great help to really understanding them.

I have always found it interesting that if you look at average field strengths, as opposed to theoretical full strengths, then the frontage of an average British company of 60 men in 2 ranks is the same as that of an average French company of 90 men in 3 ranks.

I therefore suggest that the blocks should be the same width for Briitish in 2 ranks and French in 3 ranks.

Rod

Seroga has it right: At small size an approximation of 1:1 becomes a possibility – and your market niche.

Who's to say that such a "company block" can't be a battalion for those who want it to be so?

(I'd overlooked the small size in my earlier post. Obviously the pom-pom idea is silly at 10-12mm)

Although Bretwalda may have a point about command figures disappearing in the mass, one option would be to have the command group (or Eagle Guard in the case of the French) as a front-only add-on that people could stick onto the generic company if they want to – no need to design two separate 3D blocks?

And yes the frontage should be the same for all nationalities – compromising on 1.1 perhaps, but essential for use as wargaming elements.

I printed out the sample 6 company page and made one box up. It looks exactly like a quarter company, which is what I would use it for.

I agree with Musketier that it would be better if the side figures could be right up against the front and rear edges, so as to better fuse them into the block. This could be achieved by making the side view marching pace less elongated (ie catch them as the legs are passing each other, rather than at full stride), then reducing the shadow to the left and right of the side view. I would suggest that the box depth could then be reduced to 12 mm for 3 ranks or 8 mmm for 2 ranks.

This would create some potential stability problems, but if people weight the boxes, as most say they would, then this would not be a problem.

I also wonder if the background would be better if it was grey (gray for those across the pond) which would still be a good contrast but allow skakos to stand out more.

Rod

Hi all finally printed and made up enough blocks for this:

4 battalions of six companies.
Also this:

A single battalion, each block a half section all 720 men represented.
Side views are now closer to the front, a darker brown background used (not sure if thats the final colour) and there is an optional stick-on command front and flag.
Also I've refined the soldier illustrations to show Fusiliers, Grenadiers and Voltiguers. I even managed to include pom-poms.

Further images and blurb here:
link

Cheers
CG

Really excellent.

I will certainly use them at 1:1 to help understand evolutions from the drill regulations.

I think it should be compulsory for all rules writers to have a set, so they can truly understand the proportions of battalions in line, various types of columns and squares.

I look forward to seeing the British ones, presumably on the same frontage, but at only 2/3 of the depth (as they should be in 2 ranks).

I was also thinking about cavalry. As I am sure you are aware, Napoleonic cavalry operated in squadrons, always separated by a gap of approximately one quarter of a squadron, because it was just too difficult to manoeuvre in formations of wider frontages. Tactically they often moved by quarter-squadrons (which the British called divisions). If. You want to see these today, just look at the annual Trooping of the Colour, where there is a single combined squadron of 2 divisions of Life Guards and 2 Divisions of Blues & Royals. In the Napoleonic era most nations had squadrons with field strengths (as opposed to full strength theoretical maximums) of between 100 to 150 men (the optimum was probably 120) and most nations routinely reduced the number of squadrons per regiment to maintain this optimum.

You could make those on the same 30mm frontage, but just have 6 cavalrymen to that frontage, which is the correct proportion. I know all Napoleonic cavalry operated in 2 ranks, but you could make your paper models in single ranks, then if you could adopt War Artizan's suggestion of more complex cavalry shapes, and leave it up to Wargamers to arrange them in 2 ranks. On that basis a quarter squadron (division) would be either 2 or 3 blocks wide by 2 blocks deep, and an entire squadron would be 8 to 12 blocks wide by 2 blocks deep. Alternatively you could make your cavalry blocks up on quarter squadron frontages of 60 mm (12 figures frontage) or 90 mm (18 figures frontage), or anything in between that.

Rod

What Bretwalda said.

This idea is excellent for large-scale battles with small-scale troops. And not just Napoleonic – ACW, FPW, Zulu wars etc. I could see this being taken up by people wanting to try out a new period and play while they are building metal/plastic armies. Ive seen counters on the table before now, and these are much nicer than counters. Or indeed for the boardgamer trying out C&C but wanting to improve on boardgame counters.

Just remember that imho you aren't about building pretty individual units for the table, but building the spectacle of a whole army on the table to play with.

Grand Armee or Volley and Bayonet would be really great with these – 1 base = a brigade of 2500 men, and bases are 2" or 3" square.

I'd reduce the figure size to sub cm for infantry. Go by ground scale and assume a 6 x 4 table as a very common size.

And how would you do artillery? Might be less bother just to buy in small scale metals for the numbers involved.

Finally, the graphics would be great for a seperate line of markers/counters – dead and dying, breakthrough markers etc for those who don't want to buy and paint up figures for the task.

Paper soldiers are novel, and wont initially appeal to everyone. But the same was said of paper terrain, and now that's a major player in the market. Ever thought about making card buildings? Hard Cover were great, but no longer in business alas.

Best of luck,