"Is the Imperium (and the Emperor) evil?" Topic

I hear people saying the Imperium is bad, and that the Emperor is a fascist, but are they really?

Of course xenos see the Imperium as an evil regime, but do humans in the 40k universe feel the same?

I'm not asking for your 21th century-guy opinion. We should first mentally put ourselves on that fictional universe, where humanity is beset by enemies from all sides, constantly at the brink of annihilation.

For instance, I find the Emperor to be the ultimate example of self-sacrifice for others. He chosed to live thousands of years traped in a crippled body to continue his task of guiding and inspiring humankind.

I'm not a fluff expert, but AFAIK if he dies, the Astronomicon ceases to function, thus impossibilitating warp travel for the imperial fleets, ultimately isolating each planet on the imperium and virtually putting an end to it.

So the Emperor's life is a constant act of sacrifice for others. He is not a fat, lazy dictator, spending his days in luxury and fornication. He's living in a dead body, where he cannot enjoy the merest portion of the almost infinite wealthy he posses.

Any sane person would probably agree that, from a selfish point of view, it would be infinitely better to be dead than to spend 10 thousand years living inside a corpse.

On the other hand, he created the Inquisition, and agreed with the executions it performs and human sacrifice that is necessary to keep the Astronomicon working.

Does it constitute acts of villany or is this a (absolutely) necessary evil?

Still, even if we believe the Emperor to be saint-like, it doesn't mean the 41th millenium Imperium is a good regime. But is it evil, truly? I mean, it is harsh, no doubt, but isn't such harshness necessary on that galactic context?

On the end of the day, I believe the question is: Could the Emperor and the Imperium do it any differently and still guarantee the survival of mankind?? How exactly?

Well he does get to suck the souls of thousands of psykers.

He needs around 1,000 each and everyday.

It's been made abundantly clear in the background of the setting that the Emporer's constant struggle to keep Chaos at bay is the only way.

I think the 40K universe is really without much in the way of good and bad. I really think the most "good" of any of the factions are the Eldar, who really seem to be a victim of their own perfection. The Orks seems to be morally neutral and do things because that is how they do them. Tyranids are no more evil than bed bugs, head lice, or locusts.

Compared to the likes of the Tau, Eldar, and Orks, the Imperium is evil. Even the Tau try to unify their space and are accepting of other species, they do crush resistence.

Compared to Dark Eldar (really a face of Chaos) or Necrons (cold, death incarnate) The imperium is good, if by no other standard than the end it uses to justify its means.

It should be pointed out that much of the day to day and administrative tasks of the Imperium do not invelve the Emporer directly and are handled through the Adeptus Terra and the Adminstratum. He is too busy reaching into the Warp, holding chaos at bay and trying to find hope in the stars.

It is likely that the Emporer may not even be aware of every thing going on in his "realm". the Inquisition, the Adeptus Mechanicus, even the loyal space Marines conduct much fo their business independently, engaging in their own crusades, petty squabbles and even in-fighting, intrigue and machinations. sure, the omnipotent and powerful Emporer would not allow these if he were so directly connected to his realm.

The Imperium is held together by the psychic presence of the emporer, which he extends out throughought Imperial space. He does not control men, but works to keep them centered and free from the predations of Chaos. If not for this, humanity would have already disapeared in madness, corruption and decay.

-Eli

Eli, I agree with you. Specially your last sentence. This is why I believe the sacrifice of a 1000 souls dayly isn't an evil act, since without this, all human souls would be lost anyway…

Also, I understand must of what happens within the Imperium is not necessarily approved by the Emperor – that's why I mentioned that even though the Emperor himself could be a saint, the Imperium on the other hand, could very well be a fascist regime.

As for the Tau empire, they are willing to integrate xenos into their empire, rather then conquering them, ok, but remember that they do not have contact with the warp, and so they don't understand the obssessive fear other races have for Chaos.

Were they under the same threat, wouldn't they be as supersticious and xenophobic as the Imperium?

When I attempted to run a roleplay/skirmish 40k campaign utilising Rogue Trader, some 2nd ed. and Traveller, I had the Emperor sacrifice his essence into the Astronomicon which shrunk the Eye of Terror, obliterated some Tyrannid Fleets and made the Astronomicon a permanent phenomenon. The Twelve Children of the Emperor then fought for control plunging the Empire into a Civil War.
I also used Midian as a Chaos God that only wants to eradicate all other Chaos Gods, even intervening to save a colony from them.
It also allowed a lot more leeway for the players.

If I do this again I'd use Savage Worlds.

The Imperium has been on a constant war footing for over 10k years. And for most of that time, since the Great Crusade, has been on the defensive. There is a lot of inertia to deal with there.

My feeling is, I think the Imperium is evil by necessity. Chaos is evil by nature.

1000 souls a day for entirety of the Imperium is really nothing when you consider how many people there are within the Imperium. Also, with the Emporer essentially being god and the souls becoming part of him, it really is asking people to become part of "God".

I am not overly familiar with the Tau. How do they achieve interstellar travel without the Warp? Even still, their way of thinking is more akin to the Eldar than humanity. It is possible that if they were linked to the Warp in any way, they might have met a similar fate to the space elves.

Still wouldn't say that the Imperium is evil, but it is rotten.

-Eli

IIRC the Tau "skim" the upper layer of the Warp, and thus are slower than a ship that can go full-in.

You don't need to have a Navigator to use the Warp, but you need one if you want to plunge more deeply into the warp/use currents/etc. Think of the Warp as 4(5)-dimensional space: you have length, width, height -- and time being an "honorary" dimension -- as well as depth. So the "deeper" into the Warp you go, the shorter you can make the trip, but also risk getting lost or facing some other calamity IIRC.

Damon.

Not evil. Just silly

I am reminded of the tune "springtime for Hitler in Germany".The Empire of man is a hard but wonderous place to live.The founder is for all purposes incapacitated leaving the administratum and inquisition to work their machinations upon humanity.Warmaster return and save us…..

Garand,

Thanks for the heads up.

That also allows them perfect PSB for why the imperium hasn't encountered the Tau until recently.

Took the Tau a bit to get to Imperial space.

-Eli

MATGC83 bings up an interesting point.

I'm not to up to date with 40k lore, but if the Emperor is the beacon in which all Imperium ships use to navigate The Warp? How do other races get around? I realize the Eldar use Warp Gates and Chaos Marines have a special relationship with the beings of the Warp, but what about Tau and Orks? What's to stop humans from using their methods of interstallar travel?

OK, other than the fact that most humans, if not all, in the Imperium are pretty uneducated, superstitious and untrustworthy of complex machines and alien devices.

Life of common Imperium citizen on lets say Hive world looks like Stanley Tweeddle on Cluster in LEXX.

He was sleeping in tube, had about 1 square meter of personal space, not many belongings, he worked all day under religious borne absurdly harsh enforced law..

Not fun at all.
And loudspeakers were chanting propaganda and prayers all the time..

Personal freedom doesn't exist, absolute prejudice and ethnocentrism is state doctrine, and social stratification is like in North Korea..

of course that emperor is loved by his humble sacrifice, but so was Stalin loved. Millions of peoples really (that happens and was not only propaganda) cried and were worried what happens next !

As I wrote in other post its perfectly viable to Imperium to eradicate billions of citizens to deny world to enemies..

Thats alone by any means should be considered evill !!!

That also allows them perfect PSB for why the imperium hasn't encountered the Tau until recently.

Took the Tau a bit to get to Imperial space.

Have you actually read the Tau fluff? Imperial explorers found the Tau a couple thousand years prior in a primitive state, marked the planet for eventual Xenos Exterminatus, and moved on. Some few thousand years later in the "modern" era of 40k, the Tau have advanced to space flight and are expanding.

The Imperial "discovery" of the Tau has nothing to do with speed. The Tau weren't a spacefaring race a few centuries ago.

No!

purge the unclean!!!!!

Of course not.

You should expect a Drop Pod full of Space Marines to plunk down in your yard within he next 10 minutes after which they will "illuminate" you….

do humans in the 40k universe feel the same?

Humans in the 40K universe worship the Emperor, with a few exceptions.

So, if I understand this correctly…

He's not the messiah…

… he's a very naughty boy?

this should clear things up:

There is no good or bad in 40K … it's like Stalin vs. Hitler vs. Mao … it's all evil !

I would classify the Imperium as a "benevolent dictatorship.". Very loosely of course.

The Imperium, on the other hand, is evil if only because it is so bureaucratic and corrupt.

In reality, to win a desperate war even the morally righteous must use the tactics of their enemies.

For example, the Allies in WW2 with the bombing campaign against Germany.

So is it no wonder a possibly originally benign Empire becomes ruthless, genocidal, immoral?

For me, this is one of the most compelling aspects of 40K

Byrum1--that's good!

Rob

What Ochoin Deach said, they have made themselves hideous in the name of fighting off the hideous things.

"but what about Tau and Orks"

Well not sure about the Tau but Ork Tech, well it just is.

No one knows why it works it just does.

"An interesting aspect of Ork technology is that, from a scientific perspective, their weapons do not work, or by all means shouldn't. Orks are known to be a strongly psychic race, and their beliefs affect the Warp just as those of any other race. However, for Orks, it is slightly different, and their belief actually manifests on the battlefield: if they believe it works, it does work!"

link

So given that to make a Ork made item work you are going to need an Ork. Otherwise all it is just a piece/pile of junk.

Farstar,

You'll forgive me for not being crystal clear on every bit of minute detail from a game I've not seriously plaid in over 10 years.

In either case, the Tau are different then the other folks.

-Eli

The Emperor is Evil.
The Emperor is Dead.

And Ash is coming for him….

link

(You never know what a warp storm is going to spit out… )

Have reread the one of the early Chaos Game books recently I could make a strong case for the Emperor being another Chaos faction, albet one centered on Human Primacy.

The Imperium is evil only if you consider a genocidal oppressive totalitarian theocracy which doesn't place any worth on human life evil. I've always found it funny that they're considered the heroes and the good guys of the 40K universe, since they're basically little more than fanatically religious space nazis – and that's not even comic exaggeration.

You need to understand that the Emperor doesn't really rule the Imperium, not since he became part of the Golden Throne. Whether he's a biomechanical husk that functions as the Imperiums psychic beacon or still has a consciousness (probably went insane a couple of thousand years ago) and is kept prisoner is anybodies guess…

The Imperium is essentially a theocratic feudal system. Planets, sectors are to distant from each other and thus what the High Lords of Terra actually decide filters through many mouths and many years and might end up very different from what they meant. That can be good, that can be bad. Throwing religious fanatics in the mix generally isn't very good either.

Erradicating billions of lives due to 'corruption' or 'heresy' isn't necessarily evil. These people view it as an aggressive infectious disease for which they don't have a cure and is more horrible then death (as it not only corrupts the body, but also the soul). That doesn't mean they are right, it does mean that their motivation isn't evil. There are of course factions/people in the Imperium who don't mind falsely designating a couple of dozen planets to Exterminatus for a political ploy, that is certainly evil.

It's evil. Many people who serve it might be good, but the institution is evil.

The Tau aren't as evil but they still serve a kind of expansionist communist empire.

The Eldar might be the only race there that isn't on some mission to exterminate, contaminate or dominate all the others.

When I collected I.G. I made sure it was known that they are infact a Tau vassal planet, not actually Zealots from the empire.

Again, it's only a game, and having more forces good, bad, ugly, alien, paranormal, cool, etc., etc. means more models to choose from and more models to buy and more profit … And on the gaming table save for certain rules which makes Orks different than Tau, etc. it really does not mean anything … you can choose the fluff for your toy soldiers on the table … Hammer's Slammer vs. Tau ? Or IG, or Bugs or Chaos … SG-1 gates to a planet overrun by Necrons … roll the dice !

Yes!

It's 40K

Everybody is evil. There are no good guys. In the grimdark future, there is only GW and their salesmen.

The Imperium is evil only if you consider a genocidal oppressive totalitarian theocracy which doesn't place any worth on human life evil. I've always found it funny that they're considered the heroes and the good guys of the 40K universe, since they're basically little more than fanatically religious space nazis – and that's not even comic exaggeration.

Well said, manatic.

I am reminded of the Einsatzgruppen who went about their duty machine gunning Polish, Russian and Ukrainian Jews, knowing that they woudl get no thanks for it, but that it would lead to a purer Europe.

The Space Marines would have been at home at Babi Yar.

If the Imperials need their undead Emperor in order to navigate space, how do the Tau seem to manage this same task without an undead Emperor in some contraption to keep him alive?

Seems to me the Eldar are more Neutral Good and the Space Marines are Chaotic Good instead.

Squats are Happy Good.

Seems to me the Eldar are more Neutral Good and the Space Marines are Chaotic Good instead.

The craftworld Eldar are in the same boat as the Imperials, doing what they must to survive as a species. They are only "good" when compared to the forces of destruction they face. The eldar are far more aware of this than humanity is, though.

What the Tau have that the others lack is optimism.

If the Imperials need their undead Emperor in order to navigate space, how do the Tau seem to manage this same task without an undead Emperor in some contraption to keep him alive?

As noted elsewhere, the Astronomican's beacon is "visible" deep into the Warp, allowing Imperial ships to use it for navigation at depths (and the resulting speeds) they would normally be lost in. The Tau don't have access to the Astronomican, and must merely skim the Warp.

Think of the Astronomican as GPS and Sonar together and Imperial ships as deep-diving submarines, while Tau ships have neither and therefor must stay at periscope depth.

Yes, Farstar. But the Eldar won't necessarily kill a human or Tau world if it doesn't have to, where as the Imperium upon finding aliens will almost certainly exterminate them just because. This makes the Space Marines more chaotic than neutral.

Pretty much agreed, the Eldar and the Tau … might really be the Good Guys ? The Imperium and Chaos are pretty much like, as I said, Hitler vs. Stalin vs. Mao … Not nice people …

I think comparisons between the Nazi's and the Imperials miss the point that the Imperials don't actually discriminate against any human ethnicities specifically, only ones with obvious or dangerous mutations. Tentacle arms bad, red hair and freckles, who cares. And as for the Eldar being good guys, well over 99% of them were depraved maniacs to the degree that a chaos god was born on their coreworlds. The modern Eldar have only allied with humans against mutual enemies like Horus or the Nids, when Ghazgull MIGHT have bothered an Eldar population they didn't hesitate to send him at Armageddon and 10s of Billions of innocent humans. In Xenology, GW hinted that the TAU ethereal caste had been genetically engineered by the Eldar to calm the War Like Tau down, probably to weaken the Imperial Ultima Segmentum. If you thought the "optimistic" Tau were good guys spreading the "Greater Good" to less evolved cultures, ask the Aborigines or Native American Indians how "good" that is. In the age of Strife, humans traveled through the warp using just Navigators and Stellar bodies, the Astronomicon just makes the process much more efficient. In current fluff (not the Rogue Trader Stuff) the Golden Throne eats the psykers, the emperor just directs the signal. If they weren't feeding the throne they would just be shot, untrained psyker's are magnets for Warp entities, like Daemons or Enslavers. Where they aren't culled warp incursions quickly appear. The main purpose of the Post-Heresy Imperium is to allow mankind time to develop its Psyker Gene safely enough, so that we don't just implode like the Eldar did. In a "big picture what's best for humans sense", the Emperor and his Imperium have a good end goal. The means are harsh and exclude any peaceful coexistance with any form of Xenos or Warp Intelligences which can threaten the human species. Evil? Only if you are anyone else.

One man's hero is another man's war criminal … Good and Evil are in the eye of the beholder, in many cases …

Legion ,i am reminded of the cartoon Futurama and the skit where "Santa Claus is gunning you down!"

Just a thought, shouldn't the Tyranids be true neutral? I mean they'd seem evil to every one else but they strike me as more animal in their nature, they don't know hate, fear or nobler ideals. They're just like "Nothing personal it's just what we do."

One of the recent Tyranid Codexes hinted broadly that the Tyranids vary considerably from one Hive Fleet to another. The two most recent Hive Fleets and a couple older examples have simply been locusts by nature; ever-hungry, without reason. At least one prior fleet was hinted at as having transcended that nature somewhat. Millenia in the dark between galaxies, I suppose. While the description was maddeningly vague (as GW often is with references they don't intend to develop but want to "claim") it was very suggestive of Zoats.

Going back to the OP:

I hear people saying the Imperium is bad, and that the Emperor is a fascist, but are they really?

To the extent that the State has co-opted religion completely, all endeavors are either for the State (directly or indirectly) or are squashed, and outside influences are isolated and exterminated whenever possible, all to the background tune of patriotism, loyalty, and jingoist propaganda, Yes.

Whether this is mitigated by the apparent fact that the survival of the species is really dependent on such things is an exercise for the reader.

Oh Santa is known as a bad guy in some circles … LOL !!