"Battle of Lima Site 85" Topic

Now this is an interesting engagement and would be a great scenario . Its from Kiki so take as always with a grain of salt. Robert

"On 12 January, CIA spotters reported a four-aircraft formation flying in the direction of Lima Site 85. The aircraft spotted were Soviet-made Antonov An-2 biplanes; two aircraft flew towards Lima Site 85, while the other two split off.[8] The Vietnam People's Air Force, in one of their few air attacks during the entire conflict, was attempting to destroy the radar at Lima Site 85. As the two AN-2s flew over Phou Pha Thi, their crews dropped 120 mm mortar shells through the aircraft's floor and also strafed their targets by firing 57 mm rockets from the wing pods.[9] However, as the two aircraft flew back and forth to attack the facility, CIA officers and U.S. controllers at Lima Site 85 managed to call in a Bell UH-1D helicopter operated by Air America, which proved to be faster than the Soviet-made biplanes. Once the pilot of the helicopter, Theodore Moore, sighted the An-2s, he quickly chased the aircraft and pulled alongside one. Crew member Glenn Woods, who was armed with an AK-47 assault rifle, fired on the biplane and caused it to crash. Moore then chased down a second An-2 and Woods shot it down too.[10]

The two remaining An-2s that had observed the attack from a distance escaped from the scene without any damage. On the ground four Hmongs were killed by the attack, which included two men and two women, but the TSQ-81 radar and all associated equipment were not damaged.[11] Shortly afterwards, the wreckage of one of the An-2 biplanes was put on display in front of the That Luang Monument, Vientiane's most important Buddhist shrine, as evidence of North Vietnamese activities in the country.[12] Despite the severity of the attacks, the U.S. Embassy in Vientiane and the USAF did not change their strategy for the defense of Lima Site 85. Lieutenant-Colonel Clarence F. Blanton, the commander of USAF personnel at the facility, was not given the authority to supervise his own defenses or to order a retreat if the facility came under attack. Throughout January and February, intelligence collected by the Hmongs confirmed that a major assault on Lima Site 85 was in the making, but nothing was done by Sullivan or the U.S. military to strengthen the facility.[13]"

link

Saw a recap of this last year at the National Museum of the US Air Force. It's the real deal.

Well I have a Bell UH-1D helicopter. Just wish there was an An-2 in 1/600 . Robert

Very interesting … thanks for the link. I've heard about this battle before … seems to me more could have been done to defend Site 85, and losing the site is made worse by knowing the enemy was preping for the attack and really nothing was done …

My pleasure. I found it very interesting too. Just seeing where it was located is amazing too. Robert

"Painting of an Air America Bell 205 helicopter engaging two Vietnam People's Air Force Antonov An-2 biplanes dropping 120 mm mortar rounds on Lima Site 85, Laos,12 January 1968"

There's still a lot that's a gray area over the events. People weren't even really supposed to talk about it until quite recently (a posthumous Medal of Honor was only awarded last year to someone for actions during the final attack and evacuation). The CIA account on the CIA's website and the account described in the USAF CHECO report on the attack do not line up and both were classified Secret or above initially, so there's no clear reason why this would be the case. Its probably one of those things where the exact facts might well be lost to the ages.

There is a diorama of the air attack in Hanoi's Vietnamese People's Air Defence Forces museum. Strangely enough, the text doesn't mention the Colts getting shot down though… ;-)

Not surprised at that . Robert

Not a place I would want to be. Robert

I've been looking for a photo of the diorama with no luck . Robert

No doubt, thatguy96, that the CIA and USAF reports don't say all the same things … The CIA is known for that … and possibly, may be justified(?). The NVA not mentioning the AN-2s being shot down … really no surprise there either !!!!!

Also, note that while its commonly referred to as Lima Site 85, LS 85 was actually in the valley below the Phou Pha Thi ridgeline where the radar site was. The radar site was associated with LS 85, but the site was well distanced from the airstrip and associated facilities.

Well I did read somewhere that at the museum is a An-2 on display that they claim to have been from the raid . Robert

Could well be. After all the two in distant support got away. Pretty close really.

And as said, it is not like the CIA doesnt lie its ass off regularly. Particularly to the US people and to congress.

Owen

"The radar site was associated with LS 85, but the site was well distanced from the airstrip and associated facilities."
Certainly can see that from the photo . Robert

Here is the USAF Checo report on LS 85 and the chapter on the air attack,

"Enemy Air Attack

The enemy's second attempt against Site 85 came in the form of a surprise attack. CAS reported 13 January 1968: 34]

"Four dark green aircraft flying in a northwesterly direction passed the vicinity of Muong Sang (UH 8350) at 1300 hours on 12 January. When the four reached Ban Housi Soui (UH 7852), two of the aircraft broke from formation and orbited in the Houei Souk area, while the second two aircraft, which were AN-2 Colts, continued to Phou Pha Thi (UH 6860) and commenced bombing runs while flying on an approximate heading of 304 degrees."

In three passes, the two Russian-built Colts rocketed, strafed, and bombed the summit of the mountain. Two women civilians and two guerrillas were killed, and two guerrillas were wounded. One of the attacking Colts was shot down and crashed and burned near UH 606865. 35] Apparently two crew members escaped and an ADC team reported nothing was salvagable at the crash site. 36] The other attacking aircraft was also hit and crashed some 25 km to the northwest while trying to clear a ridge at UH 570895. A ground team recovered numerous pieces of equipment from this second wreckage and found three dead crew members. The bodies were identified as Vietnamese. 37] The site suffered negligible damage; no ground attack materialized. 38]

Initial reports stated that the enemy had used 250-pound bombs. However, subsequent investigations at the site and of the aircraft wreckage by a 7AF Intelligence team revealed that 120 mm mortar rounds had been converted to "bombs". Dropped through tubes in the floor of the AN-2, the "bombs" became armed in the slip stream and detonated on impact. The rockets were 57 mm, and were carried in rocket pods under the wing of the AN-2.

The succeeding day, the Embassy at Vientiane commented on this attempt: 39]

"We can conclude that aerial attaack represented enemy effort to get at navigation facility which could be reached on ground only at heavy cost. Theoretically, enemy could resort to this technique again, either at Site 85 or elsewhere. However, it should be noted that this attack was largely unsuccessful and two aircraft were lost.

"On basis of available information we regard aerial raid as highly unusual variation in normal pattern of enemy tactics and do not believe this one incident necessarily introduces new dimension to war in Laos….we are presently reviewing questions of air defense at Site 85…."

Apparently the enemy was also aware that the air attack had been "largely unsuccessful", for within a few days he began further troop movements toward what became the third and final attempt to take Phou Pha Thi (Site 85)."

link

Robert

Not saying that the CIA lies (??!?!) … but for OPSEC(and maybe some lifes at risk) … not all may be revealed … Though I'm still sort of annoyed that more was not done to protect the site …

I noticed the Checo report didn't mentioned the CIA . Robert

Photos of the diorama in the VPADF museum (since it is a different service than the Air Force, note the emphasis on the role of the ground control station) :

The only Colt I saw was this one in the VPAF museum, can't recall what its claim to fame was…

Great pics Singh !

Thanks Risaldar Singh *thumbsups*. I notice that a miniature of a Bell UH-1D helicopter is missing . The An-2 you posted is the one i think that was claimed to have participated in the raid. I wish I could remember where that was stated. Robert

Here is a great site with quite a few photos,

limasite85.us

Robert

A couple of videos. Robert

Lima Site 85: Phou Pha Thi
YouTube link

Force Recon Fly over Lima Site 85
YouTube link

Looking at all the materials so far there are some things that just don't jibe between them like some have pointed out. Robert