"Soviet LMG allocation 1941+" Topic

I had always thought it was one LMG per squad but read recently (can't remember where) about some units in 1941 having two. Was this official allocation or ad hoc as units grabbed as many as they could?
And, if official, did it continue during the war or was it only a short term measure if it happened at all?
How about SMG units. Did they have one or two? Again, I remember reading somewhere that they didn't have any.
Last of all, is there an easily accessible book or website that covers these basic questions? If you want to know the christian name of some obsure Rottenfurer you can't move for books but look for some basic information on the Red Army and I come up empty. Lots of strategic/operational stuff which I've already read but little on the nitty gritty.

Zaloga and Ness' "Red Army Handbook" is what you want for this sort of thing.

Official Soviet organisations existed at different times during the war for sections with 0, 1 or 2 LMGs, often with different section armament within a platoon (two sections with 0 and two with 1, or two with 1 and two with 2). SMG sections might have 0 or 1 LMGs, depending on exactly what sort of SMG company they belong to.

All the best,

John.

Second the recommendation for the book.

The short version is one LMG per Squad from 1939 until shortly after the German invasion, with a drop to two LMGs per Platoon (not Squad) in Aug 1941. This was upped to three LMGs per Platoon from Dec 1941 and finally four by summer of 1942 (allowing one per Squad again).

The Dec 1942 org allowed for six LMgs per Pl, with two Squads having two apiece and two Squads one each. After that there were a number of reduced strength allowances for Divs that were constantly dropping in terms of strength, which were all based on a single LMG per Squad it seems.

SMG Coys look to have been all PPsH armed, officially at least.

Gary

There is also the question of whether they had enough of them to meet the official allotment, considering that they were in the midst of greatly expanding their army when the Germans attacked in 1941.

Third the recommendation for the book, which has been renamed:
link
You can still get it under its original title if you feel like spending more money:
link

Like John and Gary said:
Dec 35: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)

Sep 39: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG, Lt Mtr Sec w/1 tube) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)

Apr 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG, Lt Mtr Sec w/1 tube) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)

Jul 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/2 LMG, Lt Mtr Sec w/1 tube) x3

Aug 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/2 LMG, Lt Mtr Sec w/1 tube) x2, Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/2 LMG) x1

Oct 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/2 LMG) x3

Dec 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/3 LMG) x3

Mar 42: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3
Charles C. Sharp has these platoons as also having a light mortar section with one light mortar, so who knows.

Jul 42 (early): Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3, Lt Mtr Plt (4 tubes)

Jul 42 (late): Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3, Lt Mtr Plt (3 tubes)

Dec 42: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/6 LMG) x3, Lt Mtr Plt (2 tubes), MMG Sec (1 MMG)

Dec 42 Guards: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/6 LMG) x3, Lt Mtr Plt (2 tubes), MMG Plt (2 MMG)

Aug 43 (official reduced strength variant): Rfl Plt x3 (3 Sqd w/3 LMG), MMG Sec (1 MMG)

Dec 44: unclear, but probably like above, possibly with MMG Plt (2 MMG) instead of MMG Sec (1 MMG)

Re: SMGs, this is as I understand it:
Oct 41 SMG Co: SMG Plt (3 Sqd) x3. The Sqd consisted of 10 men, all armed with SMGs. The company totaled 100 men in three 31 man platoons, and a 7 man HQ section. Everyone had an SMG and there were no other weapons (except I assume grenades, etc.).

After referring to some fine-tuning of the official division organization made in Oct 44, the Red Army Handbook 1939-1945 says that: "In addition, some further changes were made locally; an apparently popular one was to rearm one platoon in each rifle company entirely with sub-machine guns – in some cases such a platoon kept its DP light machine guns and in others they were dropped."

And now the Mot Rifle Bn (in a Tank Bde) ones:

(By way of background, a Mot Rifle Bn in a Tank Bde from Nov 39 had 3 Rifle Companies, but in Dec 41 that was changed to 2 Rifle Companies and 1 SMG Company, this last unit being the Tankodesantniki).

Dec 41 SMG (Tankodesantniki) Co: SMG Plt (3 Sqd) x3. These are the tank-rider guys. They had a smaller Sqd (8 men), Plt (25 men), and HQ Sec (4 men) for a total of 79 men in the company, and were armed exclusively with SMGs.

(Again by way of background, in Nov 43 the 2 Rifle Companies in a Tank Bde's Mot Rifle Bn were converted to Motorized SMG Companies, while the 3rd (original) SMG company retained its unenviable task of clinging precariously to the T-34s as they rode into battle.)

Nov 43 SMG (Motorized) Co: SMG Plt (3 Sqd w/3 LMG) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG). Note that these squads retained their LMGs and that the company retained its MMGs, as opposed to the pure SMG formations.

Nov 43 SMG (Tankodesantniki) Co: The overall size of the company is now 95 men according to a table, although no other specifics are given. Otherwise it appears to be the same as the Dec 41 version.

PS I was lazy and just did a copy and paste of stuff I had posted elsewhere in the past.

To make it even more complicated, as I understand the info from Zaloga's book each new org. was for units forming at the time they were issued. So existing units formed under the previous org. would still be using the older org.

jdg

Some nice detail of what appears to be the April 1941 rifle company, if it is of interest:
link

Timed out on an edit, so am putting the fixed one here, sorry for the extra scrolling involved. If a mod can delete the old one, that would be great!

Third the recommendation for the book, which has been renamed:
link
You can still get it under its original title if you feel like spending more money:
link

Like John and Gary said:
Dec 35: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)

Sep 39: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG, Lt Mtr Sec w/1 tube) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)

Apr 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG, Lt Mtr Sec w/1 tube) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG)

Jul 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/2 LMG, Lt Mtr Sec w/1 tube) x3

Aug 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/2 LMG, Lt Mtr Sec w/1 tube) x2, Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/2 LMG) x1

Oct 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/2 LMG) x3

Dec 41: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/3 LMG) x3

Mar 42: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3
Charles C. Sharp has these platoons as also having a light mortar section with one light mortar, so who knows.

Jul 42 (early): Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3, Lt Mtr Plt (4 tubes)

Jul 42 (late): Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/4 LMG) x3, Lt Mtr Plt (3 tubes)

Dec 42: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/6 LMG) x3, Lt Mtr Plt (2 tubes), MMG Sec (1 MMG)

Dec 42 Guards: Rfl Plt (4 Sqd w/6 LMG) x3, Lt Mtr Plt (2 tubes), MMG Plt (2 MMG)

Aug 43 (official reduced strength variant): Rfl Plt x3 (3 Sqd w/3 LMG), MMG Sec (1 MMG)

Dec 44: unclear, but probably like above according to a source I can't remember at the moment.

Charles C. Sharp has the 30 May 1944 company listed as:
1 x SMG Platoon (4 x Squad)
2 x Rifle Platoon (4 x Squad, each with one LMG)
1 x HMG Section (1 x HMG)

After referring to some fine-tuning of the official division organization made in October 1944, the Red Army Handbook 1939-1945 says that: "In addition, some further changes were made locally; an apparently popular one was to rearm one platoon in each rifle company entirely with sub-machine guns – in some cases such a platoon kept its DP light machine guns and in others they were dropped."

Charles C. Sharp has the February 1945 company as:
3 x Rifle Platoon (3 x Squad with one LMG per)
1 x HMG Section (1 x HMG)

Re: SMGs, this is as I understand it:
Oct 41 SMG Co: SMG Plt (3 Sqd) x3. The Sqd consisted of 10 men, all armed with SMGs. The company totaled 100 men in three 31 man platoons, and a 7 man HQ section. Everyone had an SMG and there were no other weapons (except I assume grenades, etc.).

And now the Mot Rifle Bn (in a Tank Bde) ones:

(By way of background, a Mot Rifle Bn in a Tank Bde from Nov 39 had 3 Rifle Companies, but in Dec 41 that was changed to 2 Rifle Companies and 1 SMG Company, this last unit being the Tankodesantniki).

Dec 41 SMG (Tankodesantniki) Co: SMG Plt (3 Sqd) x3. These are the tank-rider guys. They had a smaller Sqd (8 men), Plt (25 men), and HQ Sec (4 men) for a total of 79 men in the company, and were armed exclusively with SMGs.

(Again by way of background, in Nov 43 the 2 Rifle Companies in a Tank Bde's Mot Rifle Bn were converted to Motorized SMG Companies, while the 3rd (original) SMG company retained its unenviable task of clinging precariously to the T-34s as they rode into battle.)

Nov 43 SMG (Motorized) Co: SMG Plt (3 Sqd w/3 LMG) x3, MMG Plt (2 MMG). Note that these squads retained their LMGs and that the company retained its MMGs, as opposed to the pure SMG formations.

Nov 43 SMG (Tankodesantniki) Co: The overall size of the company is now 95 men according to a table, although no other specifics are given. Otherwise it appears to be the same as the Dec 41 version.

PS I was lazy and just did a copy and paste of stuff I had posted elsewhere in the past.

To make it even more complicated, as I understand the info from Zaloga's book each new org. was for units forming at the time they were issued. So existing units formed under the previous org. would still be using the older org.

That seems to have caused real problems when the new 50mm mortars were issued. There was no provision to add personnel for a mortar section, so the officers had to decide if they were going to pull men out of the squads (along with an NCO, who were in short supply), or if they were going to add the mortars to squads (which wasn't tactically sensible).

The situation was made worse because there was no formal, large-scale training program and the 50mm mortar was being issued to infantry, not to mortar troops. The 50mm was also odd in operation and not user-friendly (some improvements were implemented after the Winter War).

The result of all this was that some (many?) divisions didn't even take their 50mm mortars with them to the Winter War. Others took them, but they weren't effective, even given the muffling effects of deep snow.

Who needs books when you've got TMP? Thanks guys and especially Steve Wilcox for the TO&Es and for the heads up on The Red Army Companion. I was just going to drop £25.00 GBP on The Red Army Handbook but can get the Companion for £6.00 GBP

Yes, Zaloga's book is great for USSR organizations. Another good book is "Stumbling Colossus" by Glantz. This book is on the Red Army on the eve of Barbarossa. In Glantz's book he shows that the Red Army was very short of equipment. DP LMGs were at about 75% of authorized allotment in June of 1941. Units were also short of manpower. Many men were on leave or actually AWOL. When the Germans invaded many of the absent men could not return to their units and were simply hauled off trains, given whatever weaponry was available, and sent into combat.