"Is there a review of FIREBALL FORWARD" Topic

There has a lot of enthusiastic posting from close to the rules. But is there any INDEPENDENT review of them out there?

Are they 'just another set' of the dozens of rule sets for WW2 or are they something special. Some friends started to count up how many WW2 rules they could think of and gave up at around fifty different ones.

I'm always one to try something truly new, but I would estimate that only a very few I've tried are ever anything really stand out from all the rest. Are these a stand out?

Yes and no. Everything in them has been done before, but they put it together in a nice package.

Main points I can remember.

1 – Card activation with a twist. Each side gets a color, you draw cards till a card of a different color shows up – however many cards you drew are how many platoons you can activate. When done you draw the next batch till color changes again. Each unit can only activate once in a turn.

2 – Chits exist, some allow a second activation at any time (so you can inbetween two enemy card draws), others void an enemy activation.

3 – Early soviets have specific platoons activated by card to repreent their bad Command Control.

4 – To hit, you roll a number of dice, range and to-hit dice. If you target is within the sum of range dice you get a bonus to hit.

5 – Command and Control rules are very lax, but if you don't keep a leader nearby you can't spot and rallying is very hard. I like to call it push based C&C…

6 – Armor penetration works similarly, you can have up to three range dice, if in range of all three you get +3 on the pen, only 2 then +2, etc…

7 – Infantry can move anywhere within a 12" radius using any path (so they could end up going 36" – as long as they end up 12" away or less). Vehicles can turn, move, then make one last turn (or move, turn, move, one last turn – can't exactly remember at the moment). Makes vehicles fighting infantry in close terrain a risky business without little friends along.

Its an Awesome Game!!!!!!!!!!!

My review in a nutshell.

I played in two Fireball games at historicon really enjoyed the rules.
I played some Flames of War because that is pretty much the only "historical" game around here.
Those two rule systems are very different.

Thanks to range dice for infantry and armor you do not have that napoleonic distance effect. You may or may not hit something.

Leaders are very helpful for rallying your troops when they become fired on disorganized/wounded. Snipers can target individual leaders which is a nice feature.

I was able to read and understand the rules in a couple of hours, they are done really well. Less is more worked out really good.

The terrain rules and terrain interaction is well done.

My favorite part is the fact that BOTH players are involved all the time. You watch for enemy troop movement and take opportunity fire (or sometimes hold your fire and stay hidden and it will pay off later).

How are infantry based?

Maybe the only negative aspect of the game is that it, somehow, relies heavily on the presence of a referee (a luxury that many of us couldnīt afford).

Hidden units and spotting seems to be a crucial part of the game. There are an optional "blind" rules (a quarter of a page, btw) that seems more like a last-minute addition rather than a solid alternative to the use of a referee. Maybe some home rules would arise to cover this situation.

Also, while i understand the need of divide the areas of terrain into "squares" i donīt like the visual appeareance of it (better solution i find is placing strings of wool to divide the areas. Pretty ugly).

This is a minor point. Otherwise a great set of rules that doesnīt need tons of miniatures to play.

You could base infantry as you wish.

There are some suggestions (4 miniatures/base for a heavy squad, 3 for a regular one and 2 figures for infantry teams) but you could use whatever you like. The base of the game are "stands" not individual miniatures.

Hint: this saves a lot of money in miniatures. Whis is one of the reasons why i like this game.

Mal Wright--

Don't know if you've seen 'em, but they have some tutorials demonstrating play/game mechanics on You Tube.

Ruben – we have found that there are many interesting ways to denote the terrain zones so they are visually appealing. Just placing a bush or certain type of tree at the zone intersections (corners) works well and looks great.

cheers,
Mark

you dont need to bother marking the terrain it mostly applies to forest areas and you can pretty much ave one look at it and easily figure out how to split it up.

Mal – When I first tried a playtest game at a con, I thought it was awful. My buddy and I tried it again at Historicon and it is very engrossing if you like games where a stand is a squad and a vehicle is a vehicle.

Reading the rules makes you think "huh?" until you consider the intention of the writer. It is a very clever design.

If you didn't live on the other side of the world, I would invite you over to try them !!!!

Thanks for the suggestion, mark. Iīll give it a go.

I was trying to find something negative about FBF to give a more "impartial" review but itīs pretty hard! :)

I played in a game at Historicon a few years ago and the rules weren't for me. I thought that the range dice for fire combat was a case of "reinventing the wheel" and only added a learning curve hump at the beginning of play.

For me, the defining aspect of the game I played in was that it didn't play out any differently, in the aggregate, than an IGO-UGO game like Flames of War.

That being said, it's just my opinion!

How did you play the game "a few years ago" when it was just released couple months ago?

^^^Playtest?

The rules as they existed a couple years ago are very different from the final version.

@Petrov: They ran playtests at Historicon. I may have mistyped; historicons run together for me, it may have only been last year.
@Jrbatso: True, I haven't seen the final version.

I too thought the dice mechanics were reinventing the wheel the first time I played the game. It is, but it allows some complex interactions with a minimum of rules fuss. I would suggest giving them another try and reading through then when you get a chance.

@Dynaman: True enough---next time I'm at a con and I see a Fireball Forward game I'll give it another shot. The bigger issue for me was that the game didn't play out differently than a game of FoW; I think I could have pulled out the equivalent forces and used FoW and not only produced the same outcome, but probably the same maneuvers, too.

In Fireball Forward's defense, that was in the playtest phase, and it was an armor-only game. But I'd want to play another game, with combined arms, before buying.

1 – Card activation with a twist. Each side gets a color, you draw cards till a card of a different color shows up – however many cards you drew are how many platoons you can activate. When done you draw the next batch till color changes again. Each unit can only activate once in a turn.

Are they standard playing cards? Or cards for the game?

I remember a bit of a fad about 40 years ago when playing cards were used. I thought they looked awful for a tabletop game. One had a die rolling equivilent for those who didnt want to use playing cards.

If you didn't live on the other side of the world, I would invite you over to try them !!!!

Well…..nezt time you are travelling to Australia let me know and we'll organise a test game!

Don't know if you've seen 'em, but they have some tutorials demonstrating play/game mechanics on You Tube.

OK. Just sat and watched the various volumes. OMG they ARE using playing cards!

Everything in them has been done before.

Oh dear! How true! I was hoping for some new ideas, not a rehash or just another way of doing what others have done before.
Very disappointing. After all that hype I really had high hopes of them having invented an alternative to the wheel, not just putting on a retread. The You Tube demo is like watching a re run of an old over worn movie plot. But thanks for the heads up!

I dont wish them ill. I hope they do ok.

But I do hope someone will come up with some fresh and innovative ideas eventually. I thought we left playing cards behind before the bloke doing the demonstration on You Tube was even born. The actual principle behind that is really no different to BLITZKRIEG COMMANDER where you roll a die for activations and the number of them you get. Its simply using different coloured playing cards. Mind you, I love BKC and my group use them all the time, so I am not against the general idea behind it. Its just that I dont see stepping back into past decades and drawing cards as an alternative to rolling dice, as being much of an innovation.

Perhaps I am just old!

Nothing like BKC. You don't get to activate a unit more then once a turn through card activation. Does not sound that different but it plays much differently.

I found that it plays very differently than games like FOW. Opportunity fire is king, and if you are attacking into defended positions the tactics is very different from FOW where a massed charge could do the trick…

I started my 15mm gaming with Flames of war. This is nothing like flames of war.

it plays much differently

I've just sat through all six of the demo video's again.

The firing system looks unnecessarily complicated. But what discourages me besides the playing cards and old ideas born again, is the shocking scenery. For a public demonstration of a product its awful. It reminds me of those competiton gamers who dont want any scenery because it might get in the way. Just give them a bare flat surface and they are happy. Or the bloke recently trying to convince me that it was better to have bits of felt for his warmachine/hordes scenery because real model scenery was just a nuisance and got in the way. Ummm…I think that is the problem one must solve on a real battlefield….not ask someone to change it over for a lump of felt.

When the narrator was talking about trying to sight the Germans who are hiding behind the wall in the video, my thought was that if there were only five bits of scenery and I occupied two of them then I'd want to put down covering fire on the other three bits anyway! Its just logical. The description was fair enough and the intent behind the idea, but the 'competiton gamers scenery' ruined the whole explanation for me.

Sorry. But its an honest comment on how I saw it.

When it comes to the game the table it can be as interesting as you want to make it.

Here is a picture my recent FF playtest. I am new to the rules as well.

link

Sorry you wanted a demonstration of the scenery not the Rules?

The videos were to demonstrate the rules not the scenery.

Great stuff Old Warrior!

Sorry you wanted a demonstration of the scenery not the Rules?
The videos were to demonstrate the rules not the scenery.

No. But I think, and its only my opinion, that you can tell a lot about the mind set of the rule writers from their presentation of demonstration photographs and so forth. Look what Old Warrior put up! Inspiring stuff. You look at that and it can make you think that its worth looking at the rules and that certainly the person presenting it went to a lot of trouble to make it look good.
If I was at a convention and someone was trying to convince me to try and buy, the Fireball Forward video would barely draw my attention, whereas even a section of what Old Warrior has demonstrated, would certainly make me stop and look. I think that would be true of most people. Presentation counts for a lot. And first impressions count heaps, so that first impression needs to be one to stop you in your tracks!

Why all this bashing about the scenery in a tutorial video? This must be one of the dumbest critiques iīve ever read. Mhhh…i think the shade of khaki in the US paratroopers figure is not right…the game must be rubbish then!

As far i can remember there are not many developers that offer potential players tutorial videos to get a grasp at the basic mechanics of their rules (except BF).

This guys are definitely not Battlefront and surely doesnīt have the same resources and (most important) doesnīt try to sell you their models and scenery. So…what if they have uploaded an amateur tutorial video? Thatīs fine, you could put as much detailed scenery in your games as you want.

+1 for them!

So…what if they have uploaded an amateur tutorial video?

They are your words not mine!

And I am far from one to critique the fine shades of khaki. I merely say that from the view of promoting a new game, I think that the scenic presentation is uninspiring!

Is the world still free enough that someone can express an opinion withiout being accused of 'bashing' and 'dumbest'?

I did not engage in emotional outburst! I merely said what I believe to be so. If you want to sell something, then present it in its best possible light.

I have to agree with Mal. When I watched the video's I felt the same way. But I did not let it prevent me from buying what appeared to be a good set of rules. The sad part of the videos is that while demonstrating the rules mechanics they did not show off the elegance of the rules. One needs to visit the yahoo groups discussion or play the rules to understand this point.

Hi All,

Regarding the tutorial videos…We are a group of guys that all have day jobs and families. I wanted to put up some videos to help people get understand a few concepts to help them along with the rules but I had a total budget of 0 dollars to do that with…not to mention no time.

I can understand if the videos do look amatuerish but that is who we are. We are not a game company. We are just a group of gamers that really enjoy the hobby. If everyone knew how little money we make per book you would probably wonder why we do it and then realize that we do it just for the love of wargaming.

The terrain in the videos is uninspiring but that is the best we could come up with in the circumstances. If you want to see some nice terrain go to the website and check out the blog (especially early posts) There are some great pics there…especially Hue CIty.

Anyhow – The game is very fun and hopefully over time I hope that will overshadow everything else.

To be honest, for me the payoff has been the hundreds, if not thousands, or hours of fun times playing this game with various gaming groups. I put it out there so that others may have the same experience.

cheers,
Mark Fastoso

Tim, I have been waiting a long time for Crossfire2 to show up. Its not likely to happen in my life time. After a lot of tweaking on Crossfire, much like you have, I started to look around. If you haven't joined in to the Fireball Forward Yahoo group give it a look. I nicely was suprised with this game concepts and its interactions and ordered the rules. The video's do not do the rules justice in my opinion.

Being a fan of Crossfire , Fireball Forward have been a pleasant surprise…give it a look. It may remind you of CF in certain aspects…and it have proper vehicles rules! :D

"Independent Review"; there's no such thing or any ruleset unless you mean someone reviewing it outside of the game designers.

That was indeed what I was looking for. I had seen post after post, but was surprised that there seemed none from outside the game designers. That always makes you wonder why, so I was simply looking for some independent player feedback before purchasing a copy.

Come now Mal, I think you've been swallowed by the glossies of GW and FOW

Not at all. I wouldn't even consider them when it comes to rules produced by non customer exploitive corporations. The video on You Tube about my convoy series was produced without my knowledge or input. However as a small publisher, I do try to present my own material as nicely as possible. It helps with sales. I know what the guys were trying to do. I'm advising, as someone who's done it all for years, that next time, put some ing trees on instead of felt and use a nice scenic base to show potential customers that you care enough to do that.

I suppose to some extent my bad impression was gained through recent discussions about a large event in which Warmachine/Hordes want to be involved and not only my response, but that of the entire committee (some who play it) was firm in that some bits of felt indicating a house, a wood, a crop, on a brown tabletop did not constitute an acceptable 'Public display' at a major event. It may be the way they play the game as private individuals and for their own competition games, but we were of the unanimous opinion that for a major public event, where everyone else was putting on their best possible show, they could at least use some real model trees, a real house, etc. AND most DEFINITELY that we did not accept the submision that some prefer not to paint their figures or at most to just use a grey primer. So having dealt with that in recent days, my mind was still rather numbed at the very thought of it.

So when I mentioned 'Mind set' of the designers, I confess that I was probably being influenced by the extremely 'minimalist attitude' of some 'pressgangers'. I think its reasonable that if you are going to make an appearance at a major public event that one should 'dress appropriately'. (unless of course you are a punk rocker…rapper….etc when inappropriate is probably appropriate)

I really dont want to hurt these blokes. But I am suggesting that when they put on public events, they should remember the old retail rule of making things look nice. That helps to sell the product.

Even the exploitive corporations that put out rubbish to an entrapment business format, know the value of promotion and advertising.

I got your point, Mal. Sorry if my previous words were a bit too harsh.

You are right about the appearance of a game. I donīt play FOW but i purchased the rulebook, scenery and even some platoon boxes based purely on cover artwork and the really nice aspect they have on the store shelves.

So, yes, the more effort you put on the details, the better. Itīs called "marketing".

Regarding the video, itīs true that some trees would look good but they have used felt because the viewers can easily see the "zones" of the pieces of terrain and, in any case, they would have to remove the trees (if based individually) to move the infantry bases so…itīs ok.

Btw, guys…it would be nice if you also could make some more videos explaining how armoured combat works and maybe indirect fire. This would cover, more or less, all the aspects of the game.

Mal, I can assure you that no games of Fireball were ever demoed at any convention that were "minimalist" in presentation! It was pretty much "A" game all the way.

See my Historicon '11 Stalingrad game that was featured in an issue of Wargames Illustrated here-- link

And many, many of my other games here-- link

Most of the other playtesters put on stuff that looked much like this. So although Mark went light on scenery in the videos because, as Ruben so correctly states above, it was all about showing the RULES, you can rest assured that gamers who have tried the system have had great models and excellent scenery to play with. This ain't no Warmachine-type crapola!! 8)=

Jerry

Besides, I think most of us will end playing thr game with our own minis anyway…

You can't have mine! 8)=

Mal, I was just reading over the rules. Going over the Design Notes written by Mark Fastoso. They are helpful as they explain the why of many of the mechanics in the rules. Perhaps Mark or Jonathan can publish the designer notes in the Yahoo group, or elese where, to provide some additional context.

See my Historicon '11 Stalingrad game that was featured in an issue of Wargames Illustrated

OK. That was a pretty serious bit of wargaming!

My comments were more seeing it from the eyes of someone who also sells rules.
The customer is your bank manager. The customer decides if you get his money or not.
Therefore when you go to see the bank manager you wear your best clothes. You dont 'dress down' if you want to impress. And as the video's were meant to convince people to part with their money, my advice to the blokes who are doing it was 'dress up'.
Which in this instance means the wargames table.

> And as the video's were meant to convince people to part with their money, my advice to the blokes who are doing it was 'dress up'.

And in the "you can't please all the people all the time" corner – I bought the rules partly due to those videos being "dressed down". I WANT rules demonstrations to be pared down affairs – strip away the extraneous to focus on the core issue which in this case is how the rules work.

Thanks for the comments, Mal.

Perhaps a dressier demo video would have sold more copies, but from the rest of the input I have seen on the FF site and from all the direct comments I heard at Historicon it seems the videos were really well received. Not many companies actually produce that sort of thing. Nobody else ever said anything about the scenery being bad because I think most realized it was the rules they were emphasizing. The bottom line is every single copy was sold so that Mark had to go to a second printing immediately following the con.

Hopefully you will give the rules a try. They have become the only set I use for company actions, and the upcoming scenario books for early war desert and Guadalcanal are wonderful pieces of work. Kursk and Villers Bocage books are coming as well.

The bottom line is every single copy was sold so that Mark had to go to a second printing immediately following the con.

Then my best wishes for them are that I hope it was a hell of a large print run!

So I looked at the video and seems like 6mm isn't an option as they said it was for 15 to 28

I think that ANY scale is an option in ANY game. We play primarily in 15mm but there are guys who play in 20, and another fellow who has set up his collection in 6mm. Since all infantry is based as squads and teams it works fine regardless of the size of the models.

Actually, although they use 15mm the ground scale is closer to 6mm. So using 6mm would actually make the ground scale and minis scale a little closer.

Still can't find a single blog review of Fireball Forward via google search. How can this be?

"Actually, although they use 15mm the ground scale is closer to 6mm."

I've been play testing Fireball since almost day one and as far as I know there is no time or ground scale specified in the game. Have you read differently?