"Rules have become too shiny" Topic

Have bought a couple of shiny ones; FOG ancinets and FOW and sold them both as I didn't find the rules all that appealing.However did love the production values, clarity of pictorial diagrams and lots of lovely figures painted and displayed. Now if we had only been able to convince Phil to add a bit more shine to DBMM I would have been even more happy!

@ Ochoin Deech
Mardonius' death.

This, according to Herodotus.

"However, the Spartans closed in on Mardonius; a Spartan soldier named Aeimnestus saw him astride his horse, picked up a large rock off the ground and threw it hard at Mardonius; it hit him squarely in the head, killing him.[69] With Mardonius dead, the Persians began to flee; although his bodyguard remained, they were annihilated.[64] Quickly the rout became general, with many Persians fleeing in disorder to their camp.[68]"

Possibly true but how did the Greeks recognise Mardonius?
The detail of the hurled rock & the slayer being named also does not ring true to me.

But let us allow it it to be. On horseback, on a rise and in the forefront, maybe he was the focus of attention to an army not yet fully committed to fighting? This is different to being aware of what's happening on your left flank whilst you are involved in a life and death struggle out on the right.

"The Persians began to flee".
A rout much like the ones allowed in FoG that spreads as unit after unit progressively flees. Routs are clearly possible but just what was happening outside the eyes and ears of warriors in a battle line is unlikely to have an immediate effect.

Games were better when rules were written on clay tablets and we liked it that way !!! Harumph !!!

My copy of the new TFL set, Dux Britanniarum showed up yesterday. I am appalled at the shiney full color professionally laid out book that showed up, using color illustrations to explain game play throughout. Don't even get me started on the full color fold out campaign map done by an actual artist or the fantastic color cards which came with it.

I'm half tempted to dump the lot in the recycle bin and demand a 10pt typed text document printed on photo copier paper instead.

I like the idea of hard-bound rule sets and the associated "eye candy" if used judiciously and therein lies the rub. I have an issue with adding pretty graphics when it brings nothing to the plate and actually detracts from my ability to read the rules. The trend towards printing every page with text overlaid over some distracting background or the choice of silly fonts that forces my brain to have to take extra time to process what it actually says adds to my reading fatigue and decreased comprehension. Please bear in mind that this is just me and the way I process information. YMMV but I know me pretty well and can state with some authority that this is what happens to me. For example:

"Operation World War II": Every page printed with what appears to be a "burned" look over some sort of faded photograph. Headers being in some odd irregular font that looks "torn" BuT tHe EnD rEsUlT lOoKs SoMeThInG lIkE tHiS… Without the addition of rips or bullet holes. Nice…

"Field of Glory": Every page printed on a color background that decreases the contrast with the text. Every maneouver example printed with distracting graphics that I feel could have been better served by simple line diagrams. For want of a way to describe what I see, I'll say that they look "muddy" or "fuzzy" to me thus requiring me to take extra effort to get past the unnecessary distraction to try to figure out what they are trying to show me. To me, this the antithesis of clarity when you are trying to teach somebody. I'll just simply mention the rainbow of colors in passing since it appears that they used every shade of every color if that's possible…

"Force on Force": Annoyingly again, every page printed on a faded camouflage pattern decreasing the contrast of the text. This is my main beef with this set since it darkens things so much.

It seems that all the current rulesets that I buy lately have these things to a greater or lesser degree depending on what the publisher thinks looks cool so it appears that the trend is here to stay. Some do better than others but IMHO, if you are trying to teach me something, absolute clarity should come first with fluff being secondary (and I do like some fluff). Just because the computer has made publishing graphics so much easier doesn't mean that you need to splash them over everything thus obscuring the point of the exercise to some degree. Use them judiciously. Sorry for the rant, I'll step off the soapbox :-)

I like photos of pretty miniatures and game tables and good graphics do help illustrate rules. I an willing to pay for these things, and for hardback binding to keep my investment from falling apart as I use it.

Rules I prefer to be simple short and clear.

When rules fail this test, well, at least I have the pictures.

Seriously, do people really equate high production values with poor rules? And they believe the converse true also? Glad to see some poking fun of this idea. I also prefer by rules on clay tablets……in cuneiform script please.

Put me in the quality production camp. Love looking at well printed rules, spare me having to read another poorly printed rules. No more DBMM rules that fell apart after a few games.

I have several large ancient armies, I hand paint my flags and shields and customise a highly detailed camp for each army. All in it takes me several months of painting most nights to finish an army. So the cost of any set of rules compared to the lead and hours spent in nothing.

Never too shiny for me.

YouTube link

I remember going to conventions in the west midlands in my early years. I'd usually come away with a few cheap home made looking rules at about £1.99 GBP or £5.00 GBP range. Often colonial or medieval as they were two of my interests.

They often had the same production values as the programmes at my school plays (until the late 90s when my school started printing a4 programmes with black and white photos)
Of these rule sets (maybe 20-30) I think I played one. I rarely met a gamer who had heard of them and instead they had some other rules. I learnt somethings from a couple and I kept one (a Zulu war one by some wargames group in the south) mainly because it contained alot of juicey army lists not due to the rules. So mostly I stuck with shiny warhammer and epic space marine. They were fun to read and mainly I could find players. The rules were no more complicated than any if the amateur ones but had lots of cool pics to spur me on.

I can understand the "good old days" out look of old grumblers. It happens in all areas of life. People grow up with something and they miss it even if things are better they want to go back to the depressing drab but familiar crud. Guys who want to ban foreigners from the EPL so we can go back to the days of 11 British blokes hoofing a ball up a muddy pitch in the rain. Guys who think modern music is naff and nothing compared to how it was when they discovered it. Guys who think a type writer is better an pc. Vinyl sounds better than cd or mp3 (it doesn't).

Things are better now I think even if I missed the stone age and bronze age of wargaming I'm glad to be here in its golden age. Better figures nicer rules sets, web sites, opponents.

Seriously, do people really equate high production values with poor rules? And they believe the converse true also?

Only to the extent that high production values are almost always coming from a company that has something *else* to sell you, and if they are following the GW model, those additional sales are the reason for the shiny book. The rules can be an afterthought. This isn't always the case, but has happened often enough that the suspicion is always there.

For the converse I have no expectation. Poor production values (as opposed to average) have no excuse in this age of productivity software cheaper than a GW tank model.

YouTube link

Good points, Farstar

I don't mind big shiny rulebooks if there is a section where the rules are you you don't have to go flipping between the game porn and quotes and so on to find movement restrictions or interpenetration and all those little details

Farstar, which company are you talking about?

I find myself chuckling when I think of how many war gamers are willing to spend more than they can afford to fill their closets with models they'll never paint, and then turn around and complain about spending money on a rulebook. I'm just poking fun for the sake of fun here, so please don't take me seriously :)

It's strange. The first rules I used seemed brilliant. I bet most of you recall Bruce Quarrie's book on Napoleonic Wargaming. That was the influence that followed Callan, where Edward Woodward faced off against T.P. McKenna. Everything has got gradually more niche marketed, with the production values of a complete rules/lists package designed to make maximum profit. I used to work in publishing and it looks so obvious. Now, presentation is a good thing, but only if the message is made clear. So "shiny" is fine, if its intelligible. My vote goes toward "character" which is hard to define. You only know it when surprising things start happening in the game. So, I want the feel of the period. I don't want pages of definitions, or add-ons. I'll do the research. I want a table where I can see the battle, but can't play god. I want the chaps on the table to behave like people, not titans. By gaw, if all that is in a rules set…I vote for those who adapt, rejig and panel-beat until they get a result. Take me seriously, I'm comfortably berserk.

Edwulf sums it up really. Shiny wargame rules are for people who can't hear the difference between vinyl, CD and MP3….either because of bad ears or bad equipment.

which company are you talking about?

Pretty much anyone printing in full color on slick paper, but they aren't the only ones. You'll notice I mentioned GW twice. Their entire marketing model is based around getting you to buy the minis no matter how long (or not) the rules were tested for or stayed in print. And some of those rules clearly got to about 80% done at the time of printing.

YouTube link

First comment on "shiny" rules books, either hardback or perfect bound, often do not lay flat on a table for use. I like a rule book to stay on the last page I used until moved.

Second is that in some cases too many "rules" are in army descriptions and sometimes do not address what may happen with interactions between those army specific rules.