"M4A1 (75mm) W - did it exist?" Topic

I have been researching the Sherman tank – again!

The M4A1 hull was re designed to fit the larger T23 turret with the 76mm gun. The hulls redesign had the front hull hatch doors made larger and swing outwards so it would clear the new T23 turret.

I wanted to see if the D46 turret with the M34A1 mantel and 75mm (or any turret with a 75mm gun) was used on this hull (M4A1 with large hatch doors) and the only pictures I find online are model kits/video games, I have no actual real pictures of the tank – was it ever made, did it exist?

I have included a picture of a model for reference – Thanks

Warlord

Yes and no – the wet M4A1 hull was exclusively paired with the 76mm turret (75mm wet were usually M4A3.) There was one exception that I know of, though, which was the M4A1s fitted as Duplex Drive tanks. Wet stowage was deemed desirable for them, but the 76mm was presumably too long to fit inside the DD screens, so they were retrofitted with 75mm turrets and appropriate internal stowage. I don't know how common they were, but the Brits generally used M4A2s for DD tanks, so I'd guess US only.

yes it did exist, although there is some doubt it saw service as a normal 75mm gun tank.
the dd sherman on slapton sands in devon england is a late hulled m4a1 75mm.
this was one of those d day training casualties.
aparently it left the lct with the screen up but someone had forgotten to put back in place a blanking plate below the engine, so it did not float for long as the engine compartment filled with water
all the crew survived.
it was draged ashore in the early 80's and is now a memorial to the us servicemen who perrished on d day and in operation tiger the failed exercise before d day.
if you want more info just ask
i even have pics somehwere.

link

Pretty sure this is the right sort (he types, trying to remember his Sherman identification….)

Typical – while I was Googling, Shaun identified the very tank I was Googling a picture of…. ;-)

It's definitely a wet hull – you don't need to see the hatches; the "groove" between the two hatches is far deeper and more pronounced on a dry hull; take a look at:

link

You can see the hatch "bulges" and the valley between them are far more pronounced on the dry hull.

Dom.

PS – The model is 1/35; post elsewhere from the modeller:

Thanks guys,especially Shawn who led me to this intresting 'Big hatched M4A1 75'.

Basically I followed Shawn's way and used Italeri hull, Tamiya turret, Academy VVSS.

sorry but i cannot remember if i have any pics of the upper hull but i have seen it several times and it it definatly a late hull with big hatches.
there is a picture of one in british service as well among some earlier ones in a book i have.
if i find any i will tell all
shaun

One thing to be careful of when researching SHerman photos is that the M4 (Composite) used the cast hull from the M4A1 wet stowage hull, but was in fact a dry stowage tank. From certain angles it is easy to misidentify as an M4A1 wet stowage.

AFAIK perhaps 100 wet stowage M4A1(75)s were made, many being converted into DD tanks. Some survived the invasion and soldiered on. But it would be a very rare variant indeed…

Damon.

Thanks guys!!

I am gathering that that variation was VERY RARE! I have now seen other articles that suggest that it was only in training exercise prior to D-DAY. Not saying it was not used but I have not seen any hard evidence to support that yet.

I have found a photo of one rolling down a street but it is in an English village, I have not seen any photos yet that were that variant in combat.

I have also found that the loaders hatch mounted on the T23 turret was different between the M4A1 (76)W and M4A3(76)W – there are so many variations that I have created a spread sheet to keep track of them!

I have seen photos of the M4 with the composite hull (Hybrid) and can now see the difference but it is otherwise very easy to mistake that vehicle for a M4A1 (W).

I wonder if there are any combat reports of any being used? altough I highly doubt it now.

Warlord

Hmmm. Well, I have not yet come across an M4A1 75mm with wet stowage.

All the M4A1 75s I know are dry stowage.

All of the wet stowage M4A1s I have seen so far mounted 76's.

While all of the wet stowage 75s I have seen were indeed M4A3s.

I shall continue my investigations… its a dirty job, but someone has to do it. ;-)

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Oh, Mark, thats just too nice!

Though we never say never in the Sherman community there was no specific designation or design of an M4A1 75mm (W). Rather then wet or dry with the M4A1 most refer to the small or big hatch version. As others have stated some M4A1 with the modified hull hatch layout (the so called big hatch variant), which was designed for the 76mm armed M4A1, were used for DD tanks.

One thing folks are generally not aware of is the DD tanks were not only used for the Normandy invasion. They were also used for Operation Dragoon, the invasion of Southern France. In Northwest Europe they were used for the crossing of the Rhine during Operation Plunder. They were even used in Italy for the crossing of the Po River.

Most photos of the M4A1 75 large hatch(or wet if you prefer)have been credited to the DD version. In other cases the quality of the photo has precluded the positive identification.

All that being said is it possible there were some non DD 75mm armed Shermans on the large hatch around? Anything is possible including some lash ups from maintenance attempts to field as many tanks as possible.

More on the Slapton Sands tank PDF link

… am trying to become a Sherman GOD aka subject matter expert aka SME …

Tim, surely you can see that way madness lies…? ;o)

I do have an interesting question. The M4A1 large hatch was designed for the wet stowage racks which were 76mm shells. Wouldnt these have to be removed or modified for the 75mm ammunition on the 75 DD tanks?

Yes but I suspect it's no big deal – the 75mm round was similar enough in diameter that it could probably use the rack fine – you'd just need to pop in a set of inserts to account for the much shorter cartridge, so they're easily accessible still. (Assuming they didn't have 75mm wet racks available to replace them.)