"How many miniatures per battalion do you play with?" Topic

Hello, I want to play a corps level game, with 15mm miniatures and I am planning on using 16-man battalions (approximately 1:50) grouped into brigades at 3-5 battalions/brigade.

I know some people will scoff and say that only 32-man battalions are acceptable, and I know in the end it's about player's preference, but I wanted to take a survey to find out how people base and play their napoleonics for larger engagements. I dislike playing only a division at a time as I want to play

I was almost afraid to post this because I didn't want to start a flame war, it may be inevitable.

What rules?

I play Empire almost exclusively in 15mm, so all my 15's are set for 1:60 scale (at last count, near 10k). This results in units of 6-16 figures (generally). We generally play corps sized engagements, but sometimes larger.

For 28mm scale, I've been playing Black Powder, using 24 figure units for infantry and 12 for cavalry.

The main idea is to do what you enjoy and don't worry about what other people have to say.

Some one once commented on my 16-28 fig "brigades" blah blah saying that at least his 32 fig unit looked like a Bn. I said that 32 figs did not even look like a Company let alone a Bn!

Much depends on what you want, I have always played multi Corps/Army level games in 15mm using Napoleons Battles. However I have now put together 1809 Armies in 28mm. My Bns are either 32 figs on 4 bases or 48 figs on 6 bases with Cav 12 or 18 on 4 or 6 respectively. Thus you can replicate the different size Bns that appear in the Napoleonic Wars.

My aim is to play either Lasalle or GdB but from what I have read/been told etc my basing will work for either as I will provide both side.

But as you say in the end it is all about player preference and I am sure you will be told different correct answers by about 20 different people!

Tally Ho!

As, above, it really depends on your rules. I have used stands of a dozen figures or so to represent entire divisions (which I guess works out at around one fig per battalion).

IF playing a 'traditional' set of rules with battalions as the basic element, possibly broken down into some sort of sub-elements, then to me a dozen figures would look fine, as per WRG 16xx -18xx. It may well not for other people of course.

Depends on the scale of the action. A small part of a larger battle or a meeting engagement between scouting forces I might use 40 per battalion.

Recreating all of Salamanca I might use 2.

For most games with a ground scale around 1"=20 yards I'll use 8 to 20 depending on the rules used.

It's all about scale and unit frontage foot print.

Don't play with 15s but one of the guys did – used a Grand Tactical set of rules with 12-fig battalions

For me, at 6mm I use Age of Eagles – so use brigades – about 135 or so per brigade for the Austrians

For 28mm, 24 figs per battalion

I play LFS but at 1:30/33. AB 18mm figures. Usual table size 5' x 7.5'.

My French battalions are 18 figures, six three figure companies. My British are typically 16's or 20's. Big Units are split into two 16's. I use single rank basing and the overall look is very linear. Cavalry units are currently 12's but I will do a few smaller and a few larger in time. Guns represent 3 or 4 real pieces so two models to a battery (on two bases).

I'm very happy with this and will soon be able to field 3 divisions per side plus suitable artillery and cavalry. I tried building armies at 1:20 but I just lost interest in the whole project for two years before I was introduced to LFS which was a real catalyst for me.

24 man now with 28mm figs. 6 stands of four.

1/30 ratio has always looked "right" to me for Napoleonics but other periods look better with 1/20 or 1/10. It all depends on the rules you choose.

I have, over the years, re-based my French 30mm figures onto 1 and two figure stands, 36 to the battalion. I can use them as 3 12-figure battalions; 2 18-figure battalions; 1 of 24, or the full 36.

I like 40 figures for the British, mounted 2 figures to a stand – with light company on four 1-figure stands. I use wooden Venetian blind slats, cut to 17mm wide across the front; 1" deep; and 1/2" thick.

Seems this could adapt to any basing plan.

GdeP

12 or more depending.

JJ,

I have been playing Shako 2 with a group of about 15 guys. They have everything based on a 1:50 ratio 16 figure bns for the French, 12 figure cav regts, and large bns are usually 24 figures. I built my French and Bavarians on a 1:30 ratio so I 24 figure bns but play Shako with 16 figures.
LaSalle is usually 32 figures a bn or 48 for a large bn

I have gone independent of the mainstream napoleonics for many years…. 25/28mm using scalable 80 to 120:1 ratio (depends on historical battle) so the typical infantry battalion has 5-9 miniatures. For cavalry regiment, 3-8 and artillery based on the battery with width determines # of cannon.

One big advantage…. if a division had 12 battalions…. I use 12 battalions, not just one or two large (but nice looking) blocks of miniatures. We play divisional to corp level player games during an afternoon. Also, I have a great choice and selection of differently painted units with different facing colors etc. If I need the English 48th foot regiment…I pull from the box the actual 48th foot….not the 30th as a stand in.

All miniature basing systems have their merits….pro and con. I play using all systems when the chance presents itself. I prefer a wide selection of different uniforms or units, on a scaled battlefield to enable me to play historical corps for both sides…in a afternoon, plus without the requirements for markers etc. With my old 20/20 eyesight, looking across the 6' table I want to be able to see who I am facing, their unit strength (count miniatures), formation (line, column, square and open skirmisher capabilities from the same miniature unit are used), type of unit (by the paint job) and all without markers (loss or disorder markers for example). Clean action on a fully terrain table…not the open fields look, thus no worry how a large block of miniatures will fit in a built up area.

It is a different look on the tabletop from the massed blocks.

Other notes: 20 min turns, 50 yards to the tabletop inch so 3 feet is a mile and not a IGO/YGO sequence of play but before my action takes effect, you have a reaction thought. Morale is 10D or % (we use two different systems). Firepower is % to hit based and losses are shown by miniature removal. Infantry based single rank and use two width formats for 2 or 3 rank formation. Cavalry all based the same and artillery has the battery width determine the number of cannon present.

WR

For many years I have used an approximate 1:30 ratio with battalions averaged by type, so French battalions of 18, British Line of 20, British Guards 30, Prussian 24 etc.

I dislike the "modern" trend of mounting infantry in 2 ranks. All mine are single ranked when in line. My troops who were really in 3 ranks are based closer than those who were historically in 2 ranks (a slightly modified Quarrie system).

I would look to adjust any set of rules to fit my basing, and if it is impossible would not play those rules.

Rod

I play 1:20 – French have 36 figs if doing a full battalion with Grenadiers and Voltigeurs. 24 figs if they have been stripped out.

I like between 24 and 32 per battalion.

Raglan

40:1 so 10-24 per battalion.

Empire here too, so 1:60.

And I really like Valmy to Waterloo – especially all those charge reaction and firefight rules .. good stuff. Same scaling applies to Valmy.

However, my basing is a leftover from Republique, which is more in line with Legacy of Glory (3 infantry to a base, 30mm wide). I play 'Empire' .. with a mix of stuff from Valmy, Legacy of Glory, Revolution and Empire, Republic to Empire and Chef de Battaillon all thrown in for good measure.

Figure counts :

Battalion sizes are generally 4 bases / 12 figs. Smaller units are 3 bases / 9 figs, huge battalions are 6 bases / 18 figs.

Cavalry – 2 figs per base, 1 base = a squadon. 4-8 Sqns per Regiment.

I like big actions as well, with multiple Corps per side. Feels like the right scale to play naps with. But you also need to represent battalion formations and fight battalions individually to get the whole feel I reckon.

I stick to using Battalion Sabot bases. Full explanation here :
link
Basically allows for easier movement of figures on the table, and also imparts some restrictions on deployment for different types of armies.

Some quick examples :

12 Figure late Prussian battalion in Prussian 'Attack Column'

Battalion sabot base provides a good excuse to add some fancy unit labels that actually look good on the table.

A small 9 figure Russian battalion, with a restrictive sabot base.

Early French 9 company setup, Attack column with closed lines.

Same early French 9 company setup, Column of divisions, with the 2nd line a few paces behind the first line.

Same early French 9 company battalion, oriented lengthways on the battalion base for column of companies.

Some early Prussians (2 battalions) on restrictive linear doctrine bases – with integral battalion guns and mounted officers ! My favorite army of the period.

Couple of squadrons of Landwehr cav in echelon formation on a large cavalry sabot base.

The above plays well at 1:60 and 1" = 40 yards. Can use the same basing for huge battles, by declaring 1" = 100 yards, and saying that the Sabot base = the width of the whole battalion in line. Figure counts remain the same, just double ranked.

Very happy with the way its working.

Figure removal and marking casualties : I have actually changed this part of the rules quite significantly.

Whist I play 'Empire'+ I actually use a computer moderated back end to manage all the calculations and track actual unit state. So there is no absolute need to remove figures, since the computer knows how many real soldiers are part of whatever unit at whatever point in time.

I figure that the battalion formation takes up a certain amount of space, and as casualties mount, gaps in the ranks appear, and men are bought in from the rear rank to plug the gaps. The battalion can absorb a certain amount of losses without needing to shrink at all. (Theoretically – up to 30% losses without affecting the first 2 ranks at all). So my battalions march about the battlefield at full size, and carry a certain number of 'hits' with them as they go.

These 'hits' reduce the effectiveness of the unit up to a point, in all calculations (fire / melee / morale / discipline). Therefore, if they are left out in the battle for too long, the accumulated chaos may break the unit entirely. This is the way that Chef de Battaillon and Legacy of Glory tracks operational losses during combat as well.

If a badly mauled unit is pulled out of the line and whipped back into shape, you can remove all 'hits' and other effects from the unit, at the cost of removing a base of figures. Thus, the unit shrinks, but can re-enter the fray with renewed confidence. Again – LoG and CdB do it this way.

The player has to judge when to pull troops out of the line. Reorg the unit with only light losses, and you sacrifice too many bases per casualty, but keep tight control on the battle. Drive the men hard, and you can handle higher amounts of casualties, but risk having the whole unit break. Put the Risk / Reward balance back on the player.

If the unit is down to it's last base, then it is considered to be the remaining hardcore do-or-die soldiers of the unit, and only operates as open order skirmishers in a static position. (This is from Chef de Battaillon). As this last base takes on hits, it becomes less and less effective, but cant be killed.

Being static – it can only rout or be taken prisoner in close combat. (or rescued after a great Victory) Great nuisance value !

Lou said :

I play Empire almost exclusively in 15mm, so all my 15's are set for 1:60 scale (at last count, near 10k).

10k = OMG !! Great work, impressive figure count there.

Well I did start with Empire 1/60 basing which was any thing from 9-12 figures per.

But now I am rebasing to a 24 figure per battalion and 30 figures for Austrians and the bigger British & French battalions.

Six figures per stand in a 3x2 formation. I am using the small FoW bases.

It looks far better than the old Empire basing.

Wargame Rabbit wrote :

I have gone independent of the mainstream napoleonics for many years

I highly recommend to readers to have a look at rabbit's blog, and check out the excellent series of videos he has produced on the evolution of his rules. A brilliant resource for anyone who loves the period, and full of great ideas that can be cherry picked for your own gaming pleasure.

Have a gander !

I too started with Empire 2 at 1/60…but I like 1/30 more..24 man French Battalions..larger for Austrians smaller for the Brits…

Since I play a lot of games at a lot of scales, I can say minimum of 8 up to 60. Ironically the largest scale of miniatures also features the biggest battalions. However the vast majority are in the 12-16 range.

Empire 1:60. Here's part of III Corps 1812:

More at the blog: link

Why should all battalions of the same army be the same number of figures?

They certainly didn't have the same number of men in the field.

Examples from Leipzig:

Saxon von Rechten IR 1Bn of 159
Saxon Prinz Frederick IR 1Bn of 573

Austrian 1st Jager Bn 850
Austrian 2nd Jager Bn 527

Russian Poltava IR (2 Bn) 1592
Russian Okhotsk IR (2 Bn) 372

28mm I go for 36 figs per bn for Impulse type armies, French, Russians etc, and 42 for Linear armies. Brits and early Austrians.

Linear:

Impulse:

15mm I go for 32 figs for Impulse and 40 for Linear

To those who argue that 36 men still look like a company, I would respond, and I believe that I have artihmetic on my side here, that they are at least a third the strain on the wargamer's imagination as a 12 man 'Battalion'!

1-60 Empire. That puts me 6 figs for the smallest Battalion (Russian Converged Gren's) 18 largest for 1st Battalion 2nd West Prussian Musketeers

Thanks Steve64 for the warren comment. All are welcome to pick off ideas for your own games. link

At the personal level….everybody is correct. All scales and systems have positive value. That is the greatest of gaming….there really cannot be a "wrong way"…just a different way. Just one thing stands out…. they are not board game counters but 3D miniatures. Pride taken in collections, painting of, and the "small" glory (hopefully) of standing their ranks for the next dice roll. Except for that "certain" unit found in every collection. To the paint removal bucket every time for them. Sort of a tradition now as the bare metal (lead) must be cursed.

WR

I'm awaiting a large shipment of Litko bases right now for the next (last I hope!) great re-basing project getting ready for the Waterloo bicentennial.

Coming away from Napoleons Battles 16-28. Going to my own basing with 15's on the DBN base sizes for 25's -- 60mm wide.

Trick question….

For home play, 1 stand = 1 brigade. 5 militia, 6 regular, 7 elite, 12 Old Guard (double rank marching – the sight of the Old Guard should frighten the opponent!). 3 light cav or 4 heavy cav. 2 guns, 3 crew per light gun, 4 per heavy, +2 crew per gun for Guard, +1 mounted rider per stand for horse. With this basing, Waterloo fits on the dining room table. That would be about 1.25 to 2 figs per battalion.

For convention or club play on a bigger table, put 4 bases on a sabot and double all distances and ranges. Then for a 4 battalion brigade, each basic stand = 1 battalion. The quad artillery groups get 2 basic gun stands + 2 limber stands with 2 limbers each, so every gun will have it's own limber.

28mm battalions of 36

Infantry:
28mm. 24 Figures
18mm. 32 Figures

Cavalry:
28mm. 8 Figures
18mm. 12 Figures

I do 28 mm at either 24 figures or 36 figures per battalion. Use it to represent regular or large infantry battalions.

John

About 1:33
18 figs for French battalion (campaign strength of 5-600 men)

Personally I use 32 men per battalion, plus skirmishers.

But if I was playing corps level games as you intend, I would be looking at 12 – 16 per battalion.

15mm, about 12 figures per battalion, 8 per cavalry regiment. Once in a blue moon I'll put 4 units together and use a different rules system, not yet found one that I really like. But I do like the look of it.

General de brigade/In the Grand Manner basing, 28MM. So its appx 36 figures double ranked for infantry, 18-24 Cavalry. I'm fortunate to have a 12x6 table. Games are typically Division sized. A corps is a stretch. But as stated, its a personal choice. I prefer the visual my choice provides.

Infantry: 24-32 based in 4s (2x2) plus 4 skirmishers per battalion (optional)
Cavalry: 12-16 based in pairs

1 o 30-33 ratio

Sparks you have a vivid imagination!!!

Tally Ho!

For 15mm then 24 figure battalions in 4 fig bases.
For 6mm (my preferred scale) 240 figure battalions in 20 figure bases.

For 15mm Shako II (and maybe NAW) 24 figure battalions & 12 figure cav
My 28mm Battalions are still based for 12-16 figure battalion for WRG and the Cavalry are 6-12s (Old School!)

This seems to me to be tied to what sort of battles you want to fight, and what size miniatures you want to do it with. There's no real right or wrong way beyond that.

For example, if you want to fight any sort of real battles, even the mid-sized ones, in their entirety, then you have to have a ground scale of at least 1" = 50 yards. This means that your average battalion is only going to occupy about 1.5" of frontage, or around 80mm. That means that you can put … let's say 4x 25mm figures, 6-8x 15mm figures, 12-16x 10mm figures, or 16x 6mm figures (in the front rank). The larger figures frankly look ridiculous double-ranked over this short a frontage, but you could possibly double-rank 15mm figures, while 10mm and 6mm figures look fine.

Now, if you're happy limiting yourself to parts of a larger action, or to smaller brigade to division sized actions, then you can easily halve the ground scale (1" = 25 yards) and thus double your frontage and number of figures, also making double-ranking look nicer. Lots of Napoleonic gamers seem to go for this scale, especially 25mm gamers, but it seems that their aesthetic sense of what the game-battalion should look like dictates what sorts of actions they can fight.

Going the other way, and fighting truly large battles at 1" = 100 yards scale, means you're working with 40mm per battalion frontage, which pretty much limits you to 10mm or 6mm figures.

All of the above means that I've gone with 10mm or 6mm figures on 20mm frontage stands, so that I can create units of the size needed for that particular battle.

Having said all that … I confess I'm fascinated by "TMPWargameRabit" 's use of a smaller number of 25mm figures per battalion. I could see where it would give a nice old-fashioned kriegspiel/war map look to the table, and would be fast and easy to play.

Cheers,

Christopher

I use 15mm. The French are 24 figure Battalions. Some of the Austrian have some big battalions at 32.
My Cavalry regiments 12 figures.

1:60 for me.

Battalions range from 6-18, typically 9-15.

Cheers,

The Bandit

CATenWolde (Christopher),
Thank you from this humble rabbit for your comment above.. Never thought of the warren game as a "kriegspiel like game". Very interesting thought and observation. Hmm…maybe a possible name trait for the rules which currently have the title "the rules with no name" by our local player group.

We use 50 yards to inch and the typical french style battalion has a 3" frontage. Six 25/28mm miniatures, single rank, on 1/2" wide basing (3 rank formation). For two rank formations (ie..british), the basing increases to 3/4" width per miniature. Some battalion miniatures are double based (side by side) while others are single based for losses and the skirmisher (Light co.) capabilities. All infantry bases are one inch for depth. So…the 6 miniature battalion covers 150 yards frontage when deployed in line. Game basing, formations and examples is covered on the WR blog site linked above on earlier TMP comment.

WR

40 or 60 men in the line, up to another 12 in the skirmish stands. (for my Napoleonics, my NWF battalions are ~80 strong!)

A full strength French coy is 25-30 yards wide max. Whatever that is in your ground scale would be a guide for basing. A full strength Bn in line would be 6 x the coy frontage at that scale. However many figs in one rank or two across that frontage can fit is a function of looks, and desired painting time! But- If each casting represents more men than could actually occupy that frontage in 2 or 3 ranks as appropriate, rules that abstract relative distances would be good.

Just wondering if anyone has experimented with having the different ranks represent the different types companies in the battalion. This would be for visual purposes only but might add some nice flavor and look to the battlefield.

If playing GdB, then its 32-40 figure Btns, if playing DBN then its 8 figure Brigades. Horses for courses, there is no right way to do it, just suit yerself.

I think Christopher has hit the real issue, that is what scale are you playing, are you playing Battalions and fighting a battle, are you moving brigades and fighting battles or are you moving battalions and fighting Brigade or Divisional actions. The ground scale will determine how many figures you have in a formation.

I play From Valmy to Waterloo at 1/60 in 5mm, some battalions are 6 figures others 18 figures. For me the visual appeal is not the battalion but the battle field. I want to see both the space to move your battalions at deployment distance but more important I want to see the depth. Which was often 1 Km between front lines and 1 to 1.5 km deployment depth for each army, and flanks of formations. We did Wagram twice the table was 40 feet long in an L shape and six feet wide, when the troops where deployed you really saw how big the battle field was, in some place you had up to 500 meters between Corps. On the other scale of the smaller battle then Haslach Jungingen 1805 is a perfect example of a multi divisional battle at this scale, now both players have to be aware of open flanks.

Some example of units at 1/60 in 5 mm. The scale is 4cm equals 100m

First and second Bavarian Divisions for 1809

Haslach Jungingen 1805

On the other scale I play with brigade level rules at 1/120 here the formation is the brigade, each brigade is composed of battalion bases which when combined give an appoxomate foot print for the Brigade. So on this level the formations are again the visual aspect and with a ground scale of 1" is 100 meters you fit larger battles on the table.

Then on the other end of the spectrum I have been playing with 1/10 and a scale of 20cm equals 100 meters. I have mounted the 5mm figures on company and half company bases in a single rank. Now you can deploy your battalions in column of companies at full, half or even quarter distance. The French battalions are 60 figures while the Austrian 1809 battalions are over 100 figures.

For me the visual is not the battalion or the figures rather the overall look of a battlefield and many times those 28mm figures in 32 fig units just look like toy soldiers (in the britians and HG Wells way) and they are far to often jammed shoulder to shoulder across the entire table which to me looks like every battle is Borodino and the attack on the grand redoubts!

William