"If you were to invade Nova Scotia..." Topic

I'm getting ready to launch War Plan Red on a semi-prepared British Empire and I would love some in-put to make the campaign more playable and fun. I'm going to use Osprey's A World Aflame to fight out land actions and Axis and Allies War at Sea to run naval/air actions. I'm going to create a strategic map to move forces and use the results to set-up actions to be played out in miniatures.

So here is what I have and any in-put is welcome!

My Order of Battle is loosely based on reality with me using a British OOB based on 1940 and a US one based on 1941… as in those sides have militaries set on those time periods. That's organization and equipment too. Also the OOBs are based off my miniatures collection.

Now to the forces. The US is hoping for a sucker punch aimed at Halifax, Nova Scotia. The US needs to knock it out of the war to cut off British reinforcements and to isolate Canada. Here's my US OB

Task Force 6 (USS Arizona flagship)

TG 6.1. CV Yorktown, 3 cruisers and 6 destroyers
TG 6.2 CV Enterprise, 3 cruisers and 6 destroyers
TG. 6.3. BB Arizona, BB Pennsylvania, 2 cruisers and 8 destroyers
TG. 6.4. USS San Francisco, 4 cruisers, 6 destroyers
TG 6.5. 2 cruisers, 12 destroyers, supporting ships and transports

US Army V Corps with:
1st Marine Provisional Brigade
1st Infantry Division
Maybe a tank company or two with M3 Lights
Maybe a cavalry regiment
2d Infantry Division in reserve

British OOB

Royal Navy

Force A: HMS Hood, HMS King George V, 6 destroyers
Force B: 3 cruisers, 6 destroyers

RAF 3 Group: 4 squadrons of Hurricanes, two Battle squadrons

Army: Montgomery Force
1 Field Artillery Regiment
1 AAA Regiment
1 British Infantry Brigade
1 Canadian Infantry Brigade
1 2d AIF Battalion
2 Canadian Militia Battalions

Some general guidelines:

The US carrier battlegroups can provide air support but are mainly there to scout for enemy surface units. US subs have bad torpedos so they are ineffective. The British might have a sub or two nearby but really are scouting and not on anti-ship patrol (maybe a campaign rule?). The other US task groups are the invasion force. Force B is in Halifax and can sorte quickly. Force A has just left Scapa Flow and is roughly a week away.

So were should the Americans land? Were should the British deploy? Any map makers want to help me out with the strategic board?

Thanks!

I just don't see the US trying a landing. They don't have the landing craft to do it. Franky, I think they would go for Quebec City and Montreal. That effectively cuts off supply routes from Nova Scotia to the populated areas of Canada. So, a lot like the War of 1812. With machineguns and tanks. And planes.

Good point B. However WP Red has this assault as its opening gambit. So in this imaginary world we'll assume that the US has built sufficient landing craft to land several assault companies. BUT no amtracs and that cool stuff. Maybe Higgins boats, whaleboats, barges, and lighters. So the US wants to land somewhere that would be fairly safe.

When American wargamers are stuck for a plausible campaign, we invade Canada. Our GASLIGHT group does it in 1885, so you are in good company.

I blame the British for my interest in this. I got hooked on that Channel 5 show that came out some time ago.

Hey OFM, did you guys base you game off that Turtledove book from the 90s? The one with Custer and Roosevelt?

If you are bound and determined to land by sea rather than using all those troops to march up (fair enough – roads are crappy) Halifax Harbour is great – but would be full of Canadian and British military

Pugwash is a great harbour but probably on the wrong side of Nova Scotia

Given the rag-tag collection of boats described, maybe a short trip would be best – like to Yarmouth (short hop from Bar Harbor, Maine)

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No US Army Air Corps support? Too bad--I've always loved P-40s and the early B-17s.

Rob

I've looked at this in the 1860s. St Margret's Bay, South shore east of Halifax, is a large bay offering some anchorage,

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the now-removed CN rail line towards Lunenburg is near the coast. But don't set up the miniatures for a beach landing, because there are none of any significance.

You main problem is that Halifax is surrounded by dense forest covering rocks and bogs and appallingly rough ground.

You might be better off around Lawrencetown. link

Careful, there are two Lawrencetowns in NS. This one is close to Halifax. The rail line west from Halifax passes near the shore there, and that coast does have beaches, but they are very exposed and their are few good anchorages. You really have to bustle to seize Halifax before the first big gale.

There are beach defenses there now from WWII, so I presume, given a measure of pre-war tension before the perfidious attack that it would be reasonable well defended.

Depending on how those tensions would have affected Canadian deployment to fight Mr Hitler, you might also find a couple of my uncles in the foxholes there.

Most of the outer emplacements are either quite old or aimed at keeping U-boats at their distance. I'm not aware of too much ordinance over 6" from that period.

Drop me a PM or an e-mail at les_howie (at) yahoo (dot) com -- I am a bit tied up these days, but I might be able to track down or shoot come images of your landing target and of typical Halifax county terrain.

I got hooked on that Channel 5 show that came out some time ago

Do you remember the name? I've not seen it and it looks interesting.

Frederick: The original WP-R has US forces landing in St. Margaret's Bay on the eastern shore of Nova Scotia. I don't know if I like that location. Yes, it's very close to Halifax and the road net looks pretty good but it's VERY close to Halifax and, IMO, going to be heavily defended. Worse still, to me, its on the eastern shore of the island and right on the Atlantic. In my mind that makes it easier for the RN to attack it and its exposed to the ocean and its storms. IIRC, hurricanes and other nastiness tend to hit that side of the island.

I'm leaning toward somewhere along the Bay of Fundy. One location that looks inviting is a small bay, whose name I can't seem to find, that has three smallish towns called Digby, Annapolis, and Bridgetown along its shore. It has a fairly narrow mouth and would be easily defended against surface and undersea craft. In addition Highway (?) 101 runs through all three towns and leads toward Halifax. An invasion force could used that as its Main Supply Route and advance along that road toward Kentville and Windsor. Just to the north and west of Halifax there appear to be a couple of major road junctions with Highway 104 heading into New Brunswick. I can see the main army moving on Halifax to lay siege to the city and port while a mechanized force (cavalry and armor) moving north and establishing a blocking line along Truro and New Glasglow to cut Halifax off from reinforcement via land.

While that is going on engineers could be building airfields back around the bridge head for fighters and bombers. Park some pursuit and bombardment squadrons there (and gain air superiority too!) and you've cut off Halifax and rendered it useless to the RN. Then it's just a matter of the Atlantic Fleet keeping the Home Fleet at bay and sooner or later Halifax will fall… assuming the Canadian Army with troops from the Commonwealth don't arrive to the rescue. I would assume that these forces will be otherwise tied up in their own strikes against the US OR defending vital points from the rest of the invasion.

Of course if the Army has a hothead like say Patton there then I could see an attempt to storm Halifax the hard way, or perhaps, they could bring up some artillery brigades and shell the place

It's all about logistics and picking the right place for a beachhead. And defending that line of logistics from the RN and its submarine fleet!

Emckinney: great links! Thanks!

Katzbalger: I don't see them with the initial invasion force. The fly boys would arrive later once airfields had been established. Then I could see pursuit and bombardment groups arriving to adding to the battle. And yes, I have some P40s that I would love to bring into the game. Now if I could just find some 1:100 scale P36 Mohawks!

Why invade? We'd give NS to you!

Lentulus: Funny enough the TV show is on YouTube:

YouTube link

It's all there in one window.

Thanks for the landing tips! I'll have to look at them again. Like I said the original WP-R has the US landing there in Halifax County… that seems a bit too close!

As for the back story, in this little universe that I've made up for War Plan Red I'm assuming that Herr Hitler was killed during the Munich Beer Hall coupe thing. Hey, the guy he was standing next to WAS killed and Hitler dislocated his shoulder because that man pulled him down. So I'm assuming that Hitler was killed right before he got into power and that Nazi rule over Germany was stillborn. Then you have the naval conferences in the '20s going on schedule but with the US and the UK not coming to terms… and beginning an arms race. My invasion is aimed at around 1940 so both sides have some years to rearm.

So I would assume that Canada would have some warning about a war coming up and to prepare for it. My order of battle has Canada with about five infantry battalions around Nova Scotia with another Commonwealth battalion and a British brigade there as well. General Montgomery is the commander of the garrison and is awaiting the rest of his 3d Division to arrive. So maybe your two uncles are digging holes because of Mr. Roosevelt!

By the way, what units were they in?

I'll email you later. I would love some pictures of Nova Scotia if for no other reason than to talk my wife into going there to do some wargame research, err… go on vacation!

and the road net looks pretty good but it's VERY close to Halifax and, IMO, going to be heavily defended

Highway (?) 101 runs through all three towns and leads toward Halifax

You need older maps. The Autobaun-style highways were just not there. The rail lines were key – but most have been pulled up. I'm not even sure that the coast roads were there.

Heck, when I was a kid in the 60s the roads here crap; most were only paved in the 50s. I remember dad describing trips that now take a few hours as taking days.

The problem with the valley approach is that you have to get from the end of the valley at Windsor across to Halifax One miserable road with a trickle of habitation and a single track rail line; it makes the passage of the Ardennes look like a super highway through an open plain.

These might be helpful

Some local maps

Whole province. Note how rail lines are emphasized

I'm watching the show now.

This is your prime logistic axis

link

And this reflects how bad – and thus unimportant – the roads were.

link

Let's swap. Canada get's Detroit. And we'll throw in something else to sweeten the deal. Oh, that's right. We were supposed to want something in exchange…

My Mommy says they can have Chicago, too.

No., no, Keep Detroit and Chicago; can we interest you in Toronto?

The problem with the valley approach is that you have to get from the end of the valley at Windsor across to Halifax One miserable road with a trickle of habitation and a single track rail line; it makes the passage of the Ardennes look like a super highway through an open plain.

And the scary thing is that the Ardennes road net really isn't that bad. But it sounds like Nova Scotia's at the time was. I suspected as much especially when I first looked at the map and noticed that almost every town on the map was right next to water… never a good sign for an overland movement. I'm keeping my eyes open for maps covering Nova Scotia in the 30's but I haven't had any luck.

While I don't have the specifics I do know that the US Army, by 1941, was pretty well mechanized. That is that the grunts still walked but that the combat support and service units had vehicles. Only the cavalry units still had a lot of horses and they were fading away. So my Army and Marine force would be pretty road bound. The infantry would have a long walk, apparently, to Halifax and the mechanics and engineers would have their work cut out for them keeping the vehicles up and running and building infrastructure necessary to support some 30,000 or so troops that would make-up V Corps. Sounds like my plan needs more than just a couple of engineer battalions to work!

But on the other hand this isn't a "modern" mechanized force. The biggest vehicle my force would have is the M3 Light Tank (aka Stuart)… but then everything else is a wheeled soft skin except for some cavalry M3 scout cars.

But then again, I don't think that Monty would have a better time moving an infantry brigade out to engage my force either! Maybe the Matilda tanks need to stay at home? Or at least around Halifax?

The area has a significant steel and rail car works in

Trenton link

and locomotive repair facilities in Moncton. What use might the Brits make of improvised armored trains? Really, Nova Scotia was not that unlike some parts of Russia depending on the season of the year.

locomotive repair facilities in Moncton. What use might the Brits make of improvised armored trains? Really, Nova Scotia was not that unlike some parts of Russia depending on the season of the year.

Interesting idea. Canada is a big place and as you mentioned there were some railroads and they would be functional for most, if not all, of the year. I haven't read much about the armored trains so I don't know a lot about them. Being a former tanker they just sound like a really big target to me… but in 1940 where the "big guns" were the 37mm/2lbr maybe these things would have been effective. Take an engine and some cars, slap/weld/rivet some armor on it, and then mount some Vickers, 2lbr, or even 18lbr guns on it and you have something pretty nasty.

It would make for a fun modeling project.

Armored trains have MG for close in and especially AA defense, but I believe the main employment has been to get decent sized field guns close to the front where roads are a questionable thing.

And the Slovak insurgents built one during their brief insurgency against the Nazis, which suggests that they are not that hard to organize.

When I was a kid (60s, early 70s) when we went to my Grandmother's at Christmas it would be by train. They would always get through while the roads were questionable.

Hey OFM, did you guys base you game off that Turtledove book from the 90s? The one with Custer and Roosevelt?

I am ashamed to admit it, but yes.
I hatev Turtledove as a writer. Or, as Truman Capote sniffed "That's not writing, that's typing."
The man is totally incapable of writing an interesting or liekable character. He succeeded in making custer BORING!

He has good plot ideas, but terrible characters.

I was just reading about the Plan. First strike was to be a poison gas attack on Halifax. Bye bye Geneva Convention. Did they make 14" naval gas shells?

Seriously? All this so we can get a better view of the Niagara Falls? (The money shot is from Canada.)

Errrr, isn't Nova Scotia an island?
Then, what?

At least when our group invades Canada, it's by the "tracitional invasion routes", that actually go somewhere.

Errrr, isn't Nova Scotia an island?
Then, what?

The big idea here was to deprive the Royal Navy of its major naval base here in the Western Hemisphere. Then to use that same base as part of the naval blockade of Canada. Think the Civil War anaconda strategy but aimed at Canada and you have the idea. That makes Halifax something like New Orleans or Mobile… a major port of call and base that needs to be shut down.

About Turtledove:

He has good plot ideas, but terrible characters.

Agreed. Although I loved the Lost Legion series. None of his other books really appealed to me, but I liked his ideas about the 1880s Anglo-American War book (I forget its name).

I don't think I'll ever try to read any of his other books.

Errrr, isn't Nova Scotia an island?

A peninsula, joined to the mainland by one transportation corridor out through which our life's blood is sucked.

I was just reading about the Plan. First strike was to be a poison gas attack on Halifax. Bye bye Geneva Convention. Did they make 14" naval gas shells?

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. I don't think that the Navy had the shells for this although I guess they could have made them. I wouldn't think that the Navy would be very crazy about using them. In my game I'm assuming that Roosevelt got a case of cold feet about using gas (hey, we still have to live with these people when this war is over) and kept the war conventional.

But conventional could still include strategic bombing and unrestricted submarine warfare.

A peninsula, joined to the mainland by one transportation corridor out through which our life's blood is sucked.

I live next to DC so my life's blood doesn't have to travel too far.

I wonder if the current plan to invade Canada is designated War Plan Red Green?

(Ba-dum-bump)

My apologies to Canadians every…well, in Canada. Those of you who have left-you had your reasons.

Careful Tgunner, we are ready and waiting to strike south.

link

Gaming the advance on Fargo/St Paul would make for an easy game to set up with flat terrain with next to no trees. Good cruiser tank and cavalry country.

Thanks for the link Ryan. I'm planning to hit the other theaters down the line. Besides… I don't have any cruiser tanks yet. But that would be a hoot! M3 Lights and M2/M3 Mediums clashing against Cruisers in the Midwest… and not an 88mm in sight to ruin the party!

Hi,

Do you know THE game warplan crimson. It covers exacte your topic but puts the invasion some years earlier.

link

I think you should realy work out the reason why the invasion takes place?
About your timeline how ww2 would looks likje with a killed hitler i adviese THE book "Making history" from S. Fry.
Than you have also the war aimes and realistic victory conditions. One reason for warplan crimson was the situation that the brittish island are ocupierd by the nazis and Canada must be seizend before a pro- axis gouvernement is installed. This means that the canadians might even welcome the invasion and the Royal Navy is supported by the italian and german altantic vessels.
Also should the moral and willingness to fight be downgraded for the UK units.

In any case would european powers use this conflict.. So thing about the french, germans, or italians entering the war on any Side. As reinforcements for the Side which is wining? Think also about the royal Navy in the pacific taling midway or Panama. Panama is also in strikeing range from jamaica. So US reinforments would be delayed… Etc…

Take also a look at the game seven seas to victory from command. There you have a european naval counterstrike in 44.

Also take a look on the Colombia 1812 game… It is à perfect basis for à ww2 game. In the 1812 war was also THE willingness of the US troops to envade Canada limited. You could also downgrade them or roll for their motivation?

Do also not forget the great lakes and the naval action there. A invasion via lake ontario or commando raid via lake chaimplain should be considered.

Just some Ideas..about the why…and who. But something like this would go up as aWorldwar sooner than later

Have Fun and keep US updated!

On landing in the Bay of Fundy: this little stretch of water has the most extreme tides in the world. This is absolutely wonderful if you happen to be an Atlantic Right Whale, because you can stand on your head in the mud and let the tide shove invertebrates into your bottomless gullet. It is less than ideal for unloading large numbers of cargo vessels if you have to deal with *this*:

YouTube link

And on top of the tides, right across the bay from Digby is Saint John New Brunswick – THE major port for the province and a major (for Canada) military base during ww2. Any landings at Digby (or at least their supply lines) would be under immediate counter attack.

I am interested in what oob has 2 Capital ships, no cruisers and no carriers.

If it was Hood and Prince of Wales it would be one the one sent to hunt the Bismark, which was a scratch force not a task force.

And on the land troops, I take it this is a total surprise, otherwise why no British/Canadian Armoured units.

Of course that is why you are using a 1941 US force as the 1940 US force has what, 20 tanks for the whole army, and the key production centres are based in Detroit, where the forces in Canada can make a real mess of them on day 2 of the war.

I am interested in what oob has 2 Capital ships, no cruisers and no carriers.

A couple of reasons. Force A is modeled after the force built around the Prince of Wales and Repulse which was a battleship/destroyer group. In my universe they were dispatched at the last minute to deter an American invasion… like the PoW and Repulse. They were also intended to join up with Force B which is a cruiser/destroyer task group. Also there is an air group at Halifax to provide air support. Finally … well, I don't have a British carrier yet. I'm leaning toward the Eagle or Furious or even both.

As for British armor I have two reasons. First is I simply don't have early war British tanks yet. However I might grab some Matilida Is at some point. Second I'm drawing troops from Montgomery's division and corps. No tanks there except from the cavalry regiments and those are MK VII lights and carriers. I might grab some of them too if the spirit moves me.

You're exactly right about 1941 being the year for the US. The US really had nothing in 1940. And to be honest that is the period that my US collection is drawn from. In fact that is why I have a 2AIF battalion in my British OB… because I have them on hand.

On reason for this campaign is to spur me on to collect and paint the miniatures that I need to complete my 1941/42 US and Australian firces and to get the lead out on finishing my BEF skirmish force. Plus I really need to turn RN squadron into a proper fleet!

@ Rudi: Some good thoughts, thanks. I'm going to look at the game. Maybe it's author has done a lot of the leg work for me.

@ Dan and Rubber: Great stuff about my landing location. Maybe that explains why the planners didn't choose it: bad tides, poor road net, and too close to yet another major base.

I hear the Cabot trail is pretty in the Fall….. :>)

Tgunner – the original plan was for a carrier (HMS Indomitable link )to accompany POW & the Repulse to the Far East, until her captain put it onto the rocks in the Caribbean. So your Force A could have a carrier attached if you so wished..

Do you fancy a Canadian Armored Train BTW? link

As to tanks – the Canadians built a lot of Valentine tanks, in reality from 1942 onwards. You could postulate an earlier start to production if you want a more or less indigenous Canadian tank.

The Australian 18th & 25th Brigades made it the UK in 1940, & could therefore have fought in any German invasion. They could have gone to Canada instead of the ME.

I'm enjoying your version of WP Red!

As it would appear you have allied the USA with the Nazi's, could they not offer recent technical know how on how to invade neighbouring states?

Sorry Mal. No Nazi help for the US because Hitler was killed during the Beer Hall Putsch. The Nazi Party was crushed during this coupe attempt and the Republic exists now during the Anglo-American War (aka The War of 1940 or even World War II).

But I'm sure the the Wiemar Republic is no friend of Britain and probably not the best of friends to the US either. In this universe the Germans are neutral with observers maybe in the US looking on and perhaps providing some innocent advice.

Great stuff Etranger! Thanks! I now have some real world Aussie units to choose from. And the armored train idea actually has a real world Canadian prototype as well. Great stuff!

As to Canadian tanks… I'll probably stick with the Matilida II since I plan to collect them anyway. But it's nice to know that Canada could easily do this. So I might issue some of the to the Canadian Army as locally made models.

Again great stuff!

@ Lentulus;

Toronto is Canada! Everything north of our HWY.7 is up for grabs!

@spontoon

Toronto, my friend, needs to be cut loose and towed back over to the NY side where it aspires to be.

When I was at UofT (we all have our youthful indiscretions) they bookstore had a lovely polar projection map map of Earth with Toronto dead center. Of course, back then, most of the people with whom I spent time there were anglo Montrealers so that may have colored my perspective.

Anyone for "A Very Canadian Civil War?"

You mean the War of Pogey Aggression, I think, Lentulus.

A Very Canadian Civil War? Would that be a reaon for for a US "intervention"?

Kill the heart and the fingers will die.

Why invade newfoundland?

Maybe there was a good run of grise coming?